Running a Smarter Pool Business

This week on Talking Pools Thursdays, Wayne Ivusich and Steve Sherwood cover everything from the newest generation of robotic pool cleaners to protecting your business from costly mistakes, distributor pricing, chemical accountability, inspection reports, and why good documentation may be the most valuable tool you own.

The episode opens with congratulations for Andrea Nannini on her new position with Gorman Company and a reminder that the 2026 Talking Pools Mentor Award Top 10 Finalists will soon be announced, recognizing professionals who go beyond technical knowledge by investing in others.

Steve then dives into his latest experiences with cordless robotic pool cleaners, comparing different Polaris Freedom models, discussing battery life, runtime, commercial versus residential applications, and whether today's wireless robots are finally ready to replace traditional corded units. The hosts also discuss the limitations every technician should understand—including ladders, handrails, steps, main drains, and unusual pool shapes that can confuse even premium robotic cleaners.

The conversation shifts into one of the least discussed ways pool companies lose money: inventory control. Steve explains how improperly tracked chlorine deliveries, returnable containers, pricing discrepancies, and purchasing habits can quietly cost companies thousands of dollars. The discussion explores building relationships with distributors while still shopping intelligently, negotiating prices, and understanding where business owners must verify every invoice themselves.

During the Insurance Interlude, Steve and Pat Grignon tackle a topic many service professionals eventually face: inspection reports that may become evidence in litigation. They discuss when an inspection remains simply an inspection, when it crosses into expert witness territory, how to protect yourself through documentation, why objective reporting matters, and why keeping complete records—including the exact report you submitted—can become your best legal defense.

The episode also explores one of the most overlooked skills in pool service: knowing the actual volume of water you're treating. Steve explains how calculating chlorine dosage correctly can dramatically reduce chemical waste while improving consistency. Drawing from years of managing multiple service crews, he shares how accurate calculations and field verification once reduced chlorine consumption by tens of thousands of dollars over a single season. Wayne adds practical insight into why textbook volume calculations often underestimate actual system water once plumbing and equipment are considered.

To close the show, Wayne clears up several common misconceptions about potassium monopersulfate (MPS), often marketed as "non-chlorine shock." He explains what the product actually does, what it does not do, why it does not eliminate existing combined chlorine, how it can help prevent new chloramine formation, proper dosing considerations, testing interference, and why it is most commonly found in heavily used indoor aquatic facilities rather than residential pools.

In This Episode

• Congratulations to Andrea Nannini on joining Gorman Company
• Preview of the 2026 Talking Pools Mentor Award finalists
• Cordless vs. corded robotic pool cleaners
• Commercial applications for robotic vacuums
• Common obstacles that interfere with robotic cleaners
• Managing distributor relationships and pricing
• Preventing costly inventory and chlorine losses
• Why every pool company needs stronger chemical accountability
• Inspection reports, expert witnesses, and legal liability
• Documentation practices that protect your business
• Calculating true pool volume for accurate dosing
• Reducing chemical waste through better math
• Potassium monopersulfate explained
• Combined chlorine myths and oxidation facts
• Best practices for indoor pool oxidation

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Happy Thursday, everybody, and welcome to the Talking Pools podcast. Thursdays with Steve and Wayne. I hope everybody has had a good week, had a busy week, and has stayed cool as best as we can as we suffer under this heat dome thing, at least over here on the East Coast. I'm gonna start up today with a couple things. One specifically has to do with talking pools. As some of you might have read, come this coming Friday, which I'm not sure when this will be posted, but this would be Friday, the 24th of July. Uh Rudy will be announcing the top 10 finalists for the uh 2026 uh mentorship award. So everybody look forward to seeing the the list on that night. But this is an important thing because we we we try to recognize people within the industry who have provided not only you know basic knowledge and understanding and whatnot, but have provided that extra step as far as mentorship mentorship, uh guiding people, helping people, being there for people kind of deal. And uh it was very successful last year when when we did it. And uh all of us here at the um as hosts for Talking Pools, we got a chance to see anonymously those people who submitted applications and to actually vote on them. So we we we don't know who they are either. Uh we'll find out when you find out. It's just that the only thing that we did that you didn't do is that we saw the the anonymous applications and voted that way. So something to look forward to this weekend. Uh the other thing I want to do is say congratulations to one of our own, Andrew and Anini, uh down in Florida. Uh we'll be working for uh I believe it's she starts on Monday. That would be Monday, July 20th. If I'm wrong, Andrea, let me know. Uh she'll be uh working for uh Gorman company. Uh Gorman is is an excellent distributor throughout the state of Florida. I don't think they're out of the state of Florida. Uh they used to have a location in Lake Savannah, Georgia, and I think they had one in uh Mississippi or Alabama, so I'm not sure if they even exist anymore. But like I told uh Andrea after I congratulated her, I said, you know, Gorman's one of the good ones. Uh though the whole the time that I was with Taylor, one of the duties I had was being the what was called the distributor liaison. In other words, I handled all of the distributors in in the country and Canada and probably the world at that point. And Gorman was always one that I could rely on that was efficient, good, reliable. Sounds like Boy Scout terms, but it doesn't, you know, thrifty, brave, clean, wherever, and all. But uh, she picked a good one. Uh they definitely have an asset with her at Gorman. Um, not sure which location. Uh, there's a number of them, obviously, throughout the state, but whatever one she's going to be at is is a definite boon to that location. So congratulations, Andrea. Welcome to the world of distributorship. So congratulations again, Andrea. And Steve, I'm passing it off to you because you got some things to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Best of luck, Andrea. No, I just have some updates on some things. So we, you know, I told you all in April and uh May that they that IR had that vacuum, that free vacuum cleaner that you could get. So I finally received mine from them. Haven't gotten a chance to check it out yet, but I'm excited, genuinely excited about that because if you listen to the show, you understand how much I love robotic vacuum cleaners and how I think it's the one thing other than having a salt water generator at your client's house actually makes your job a hell of a lot easier. Right. So we also just picked up a new client and we got them the Polaris Freedom Vacuum. And I didn't realize that they have like a few different levels of it. There's like one that's like 800 bucks and then one that's like 1200 bucks, or you know, and one like connects to the app. And like some people need the app, some people don't want the app. But I've always said to everyone, like, if you have residential pools and your client wants you to get a cordless robotic vacuum cleaner, I basically am going to push it right back on the client and say, like, are you gonna come out here every day and take it out of the pool and clean the basket and then put it on the charger and recharge it and then put it back in the next day? Like, are you gonna do that every day? And the answer is almost, you know, unequivocally always no, right? So corded vacuum, you know, and I know that it says that the corded vacuums are not supposed to live in the pool, and like I get that. But again, like uh for ease of use for everybody, like there no one's gonna touch it except for you guys.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

What's the runtime on a charge for that one?

SPEAKER_03 5:36

So not not very long, Wayne. Like they used to be on charge, like it would like it would be like one, like one hour or like 90 minutes. The Polaris Freedom says that it gives you like two hours and something. So it gives you like two different cycles that it will go on, but that's pretty much it. Like that's where it is, you know. Like you're not getting like a whole week's worth of you know cycling out of it. I think that when we get to that point, we will be able to sell those a little bit easier to the residential customers. But what I'm talking about specifically is this I've bought this for the Polaris Freedom one. I bought it for a commercial client. And like this guy, that with the commercial clients, you have other people that are there that are willing to like make this easier for themselves as well, too. Because like, let's say you're there three days a week, they're still there four days a week. So they want to make their, they still got to vacuum the pool, they gotta do all this shit, right? So it winds up making their job a hell of a lot easier. But I do want to see the difference between the you know twelve hundred dollar Polaris Freedom vacuum, the upgraded one, and the free one that I got that is like a four or five hundred dollar one. You know, I want to see the difference in the runtime and I want to see the difference and what now I'll be able to monitor it and kind of see how they both work and how they do. And they're always really good with with getting up the fine dust, but I've always had a problem with the commercial clients because when we get them a corded vacuum, they have to have handrails and ladders. And like in residential pools, like a lot of times you don't see that.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Where they've just got like a bench step or you know, steps without a without a railing or whatever, right? So if they don't have a railing in there, it's got nothing to get stuck on. Some of my commercial pools have eight railings, you know, you know. So like the thing you come back, you leave it for 20 minutes, you come back up, and the thing is like all wrapped around choking itself. And uh, you know, that happens every single time. So I'm like, I'm just like I said, I'm just genuinely excited to kind of see how these and they might suck. And if they suck, I'm gonna tell you the truth. I'm gonna tell you guys that I always tell the truth on this show. So if they suck, I'm gonna tell you they suck, but you know, I do think that it's gonna make our job a hell of a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

We have a Roomba here at at home, and we've named her Rita, Rita the Roomba, and uh on on one charge, she can do our entire house, which uh which is pretty good. And that's you know, getting underneath the bed and the dressers and the couches and things like that. And she'll run for an hour, maybe hour and a half solid. Uh the only time her battery would drain out is if she got stuck underneath something, and then we have to go find her.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Right. Hanging into the wall.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Or just kind of turning itself off. That's happened too. She has a mind of its own. So um, but yeah, and so charging is like maybe an hour. That's all it takes. We don't run her every day, but still, it's it's the same kind of concept. The only thing that I noticed about our Roomba, and I'm not sure if this is the same for for what we see in pools, Stephen. You you can comment on this, is that the Roomba can't get everywhere. Okay, for example, unless I physically move a chair or like we have bar stools and the counter in the kitchen, unless I physically lift up the bar stools, put them on a counter, Rena can't get underneath there. So she's good for quick and dirty kind of cleanup kind of deal. But when you get down to the minutiae of it, she's not really good. You have to go back to physically getting a broom and or a vacuum and doing like that. Does that happen a lot with with these uh with these kind of robotic cleaners?

SPEAKER_03 9:06

So there's certain things that will will hinder them, like I just said before with the ladder and the the handrails for sure. I have seen them get if there's sometimes like the bottom of the pool is like a weird shape where like there's like an indentation, almost like a dip, and then you have the main drain there. Sometimes they'll get stuck, or sometimes the main drain will be pulling so forcefully, like it's not pulling more than the skimmer is, there's just a lot of suction, right? So it winds up like going over it and getting itself like stuck like right on top of the main drain. So I've seen that for the most part, but you know, they are really, really awesome at getting up the fine dust and sand that even when you vacuum with a blue vacuum hose or the you know, if you use a blue vacuum hose and you're using a commercial vacuum head, you're not gonna pick up as much stuff on the floor as if you use the you know triangular one with the brush.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Because like at the same time, now you're brushing up what's in front, and like, but you still create a cloud, you know, where with this, this goes right over it and it just picks up like all the and you know what the vacuums really do is they'll tell me like what's going on with the pool, like the pool paint is coming off because like there's like fucking everything is white in there, or like sometimes it'll pick up some pieces of the surface, and you're like, Oh, the surface is starting to wear away. The other day, I had like these guys came and did work, and the vacuum was in there, and like we opened it, and we were like, What the fuck is it? There's concrete in there, you know. So, like, we we had to alert the homeowner, like, hey, like, there's concrete all in your vacuum here. Like, where else is there concrete? You know, we weren't the ones that renovated the pool, but like this is what you know, it just kind of tips you off to to what's going on in in the water and stuff. And again, it's just you could get them to do the floor, you could get them to do the wall, they don't do the steps that great. They will get stuck like on the steps. And sometimes I have had them where they go like belly up and like they're like a turtle on their back, and it's kind of just sitting there. But some of them, like the higher end models of the Polarises, will flip themselves and write themselves. But for the most part, best $500 to a thousand dollars that we I've ever spent for my clients or for myself. So if you if you guys aren't working at the robotic vacuum cleaners, you guys are really missing out because it's the difference of my guys going into a backyard and having to be there for an hour and 40 minutes and being there for 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_06 12:33

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SPEAKER_00 14:15

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SPEAKER_03 14:41

I wanted to go back real quick. And you know, you were talking about Andrea working for the distributor. And uh, you know, I always say, like, as we grow, how do I keep a handle or how do we keep a handle on all the chemicals that are going in and out? And we're buying from the distributor and we're, you know, giving it to our clients. And like a lot of times I don't see my guys for like two or three weeks in person. Sometimes I haven't seen them for like up to a month if I'm traveling, you know, uh, where like they're out doing the pools, they're going to the distributor, they're picking up the chlorine and acid and whatever chemicals we need. So, like, there's a number one, there's gotta be a lot of trust between you know the employer and employee relationship, right? Like you can trust these guys to not go out. And here's the thing like in California, all of my guys do their own pools. Like part of the deal in California for you to be able to 1099 someone is like they have to have their own insurance, they have to do their own pools, like, you know, so we're serious about having them making sure that they're doing their own stuff. But like, how do you make sure that this guy like isn't taking your chlorine and putting it in his fucking pools? You know, so I had a situation come up, and it was from one of my buddies in the industry, and he sent me a text message and he was pretty fired up. He was like, dude, he was like, I'm fucking sick of this, like my distributor, he's like, they're always trying to steal from me. And he basically showed me pictures and he was like, they shorted, you know. And obviously, if you guys are in the pool industry, you understand that like those returnable gallons and those yellow containers, like that's cash money.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Like uh they are not free. So if you showed up and you were like, I want six cases of chlorine, they're gonna try and you don't have returns, like they're gonna charge you for the six cases of chlorine that's inside, and then they're gonna actually charge you for the bottles and the little buoy thing that it sits on, the little container. And like it's not a crazy amount of money, but it's like almost ten dollars or eleven dollars or whatever it is. Like uh more, it's it's a lot, right? So he found that like the one time they shorted them like seven or eight containers and said that they picked up seven or eight less and they like charged them extra for it. And then the next time they did like three, so it was like almost like 10 or 11 cases that they had charged them for, which came out to be a lot of money. And he was like, you know, I'm really pissed about this. And he was like, How would you react? And I was like, Well, to be honest, I was like, I would uh chill out a little bit, you know. I'm like, uh, they're not stealing from you know, they're stealing from you, but like it's not like an employee is stealing from you. Like, that's a direct, like, hey, they're stealing from you. I'm like, these guys, like the drivers, like every time I make an order for chlorine, there's a new fucking dude driving the truck. You know, like there's a lot that goes into driving a truck because you have to have a CDL, you have to have not gotten in trouble, like, you know what I mean? Like, you have to take drug tests all the time. This isn't like a you know pre-employment drug test. Like these guys are getting drug tested on the regular. Uh, so there's a lot of movement with the drivers. And I I know that like if there's one thing that I know about business, it's like that no one is gonna care about your business more than you care about your business, right? So you have to have a really short leash on you know what you bring back and you know, counting that and stuff. And that's why like I I know that my guys would never be on the losing end of that. Um, so they're always checking and making sure. And like also, like they're only bringing like seven to ten cases at once. My buddy, they picked up like 43 cases and said they shorted him seven. So like it's like now we're getting into like almost a palette's worth. Um and he asked the question online on Facebook, and some of the answers were really good. And that you know, the most convincing answer that I got, and I saw it a few different times, is a couple guys were like, Why are you buying like 56 cases at once and then 43 cases at once? They're like, Why don't you just buy a skid, which is a palette, right? And then when you return it, you return a palette. And like it's easy. Like the palette makes a square, you know what I mean? Like, boom, done. It's super easy. And that was a really great answer, you know, for me, where like if I'm buying that much chlorine, like what does it matter if you've got to buy an extra 10, 12, 14 cases, right? Um, it's not gonna be really that that that huge of a deal to just hold that on site if you're already buying 40, 50 of them. But it leads me to my next point of like, that's a way that you could, as your bus as a business owner, you can lose money. Like, sure, the distributor could could short you and and and fuck you. And like that's why it's worked out in like uh both directions. Where like I've had the distributor, we ordered a heater and like they pulled the heater and it wasn't the heater that we bought. And then my you know, then we went and we installed it, and then they called us later in the day and they're like, yo, like you fucked up, like you guys took this, you know, you took this heater, and I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm like, who fucked up? Yeah, I'm like, it's it sounds like you guys, you know, we don't have access to the heaters, like we don't go in the back and take the heater off of the shelf. Like you sent a guy to the back and you picked the heater and you brought it to us. So, like, do we absolutely every time need to double check that? Yes, but like we didn't, and now it's too late. So they're like, okay, just bring it back. And I'm like, I can't. I'm like, it's already installed and has water running through it. So, like, what do you what do you want me to do about it now, you know? And there's not much that I could that that they could do about it, you know. So we were kind of like, okay, cool, like whatever. But on the other end, like if they short you or they charge you, you know, I can't tell you how many times, like, they've charged me for something and it was the the wrong thing. Like, I picked up the the swimmables part, or I picked up a part that wasn't an OEM part, like a CMP product, because I wanted it to get it cheaper and it's the same product, right? And now all of a sudden I look at my bill and it's like, why did you charge me for the one that's like uh you know triple as expensive? And if you listen to this show, you know and you understand that like before you even go to the distributor, you should be checking out like where can I buy this from? And look, I love SCP. Okay, like they let me have classes there, I have a great relationship with them. Tyler and Alex at my local branch, they knock it out of the park, like they're always super honest and transparent about what they do. And anytime I've come with them like with a problem, they fixed it immediately for me. Um, I also love heritage. Heritage sometimes has a lot of products that are cheaper than SCP. Sometimes I love Leslie's, you know what I mean? Sometimes let Leslie's won't give you a discount off what they have, but Leslie's has a lot of things that they don't have, like residential-wise, right, you know, where you could go and you could get it. They also have like a pro partner thing that you could be with them and whatnot. So they they all do have their benefits, but I do not ever just blind unless it's an emergency and I'm tacking on time and you know, time for labor and I'm just marking the product up anyway, like where it doesn't matter, like with and that's like with a commercial where like it the burner went down and we got to go get a burner. Like we're not looking on the internet to go get a burner that we're gonna get in four days. Like we're gonna go pick up the closest burner that's in, you know, even if we have to drive to Van Nuys or to, you know, Burbank or wherever it may be. Like we're driving, like there's distributors all over LA. We'll go get one. But if I have the time and I'm like, and I had one of my clients the other day, he sent me a heater, and he was like, Hey, I want to buy this RayPack heater. And I was like, Okay, I'm like, we don't really install stuff that we that we don't buy, you know. But I had to go back and kind of like price match it a little bit. So I didn't make as much money on it as I would have, but I much rather would make less money, still make a little bit of money, and install the thing. So at least our hands are on it and we know it's gonna get warrantied if it needs to. Like if you're buying it from this place up in Walnut Creek, like you like, and then now there's shipping and stuff. So like I looked at like the final price and I'm like, this is like about you know, comes out evenly anyway with all this shipping and all this stuff, you know, because obviously they're selling it for retail price. So I'm always on the internet looking around to at least see like what is the most competitive thing. And a lot of times, most of the distributors, if you show them a price. Not from the internet, but from one of the other competitive distributors, they will actually, for the most part, match that price. You just got to ask. And, you know, the worst thing that they could say is no. And then you could say, okay, no, I'm not going to buy it. I'm going to go there and buy it.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

And I've had that happen with a few different things. Where like I used to buy my Hayward Top Mount sand filters from one distributor and they stopped matching the price. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go to this other distributor and get it.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Now, is this just for big ticket items?

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Or hey everyone, and welcome back to the insurance interlude, which is a part of Thursdays with Wayne and Steve. So, as always, your host, Steve Sherwood, and my co-pilot, Pat Grignon. So, Pat, thanks so much for coming on. Really love having you here. I say that all the time, but I just I really, really do. No, I appreciate you having me, Steve. Thank you. Thanks for being here. My question to you is one that's a little bit more serious today, in a sense of because like I get called out a lot of times, and like I'm not really sure what people's uh like ulterior motives are, like when they want me to come see something. And that's why like I try and do really, really, really good reporting, you know, and and record, you know, I guess like record keeping and asking questions and just basically feeling out kind of what's going on at the beginning to see like, are you trying to like go to litigation? Like, you are you getting sued? Like, are you suing somebody? Because it gets into like this really sticky area. And for the most part, you know, if someone's trying, like, hey, like if they like say right over the phone, like, hey, like we're looking to, you know, go to litigation, like that basically just makes it into like not a consulting or an inspection job, it makes it into an expert witness job. And that's a totally different ball game than you know what the first two are. So my question is like I go out and I do these inspection reports. And after I give them the inspection report, like uh they can kind of do what they want with it, right? So would my inspection report, number one, would it be valid in court? Number two, are they allowed to use it without my permission now that they've purchased this report from me? You know what I mean? Like what obligation do I have to like be a part of that? Like, what if I'm like, you know, what if I say, oh, like it's it is your fault or whatever, and they still go with that, you know what I mean? Like, uh, but they don't show that part of the report or whatever it may be. Like now it's now it's their report, right? So they could doctor it or they could, you know, I put it as a PDF, but you could still change shit around if you wanted to, right? So for the guys out there that are doing inspections, like at what point do you stop being an inspector and start being a consultant slash expert witness in these types of jobs? And like, what do you need to really worry about to be able to you know cover cover my ass? And like uh now that I'm that last professional on site, if anything were to happen later, you know, would that come back on on us?

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, yeah, no, good really good question. So, you know, look, what once you once you go out there, you know, you're I don't see a ton of difference, although, you know, one means you're kind of you know in in court and the other you're just giving the inspection. But you know, once you give the inspection, that's I would think that that'd be admissible if if uh you know if if they chose to ask for it uh or um you know felt like they've had an obligation to use it or used it. And so ultimately, yeah, I mean it they could potentially drag you into a lawsuit for sure, whether there'd be anything there or not, you know, like that it you'd probably get out of that by writing a letter and saying, like, look, I gave an inspection, that's all my my whole part of this thing, and I don't I don't think there you'd have any issues getting out of it with that letter. But they can kind of drag you in, they can drag you into if they want to.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

That part of this, and not to cut you off, but I just want to make this point that like with this with this report, you know, I'm super clear that like all everything that I'm saying is only valid for today. Like, and this is what I think a lot of homeowners, and I just had a guy call me, and this is what this is why I was talking about this today, because he called me and he was referred to me by one of the you know, by one of the plasters that I know. And he was like, Hey, we we did this pool like three years ago, and uh, you know, basically the homeowner started complaining after a year, and I came out and I told them, Hey, this is chemistry based. I started up the pool for you, and I'm not servicing the pool. So, like, I haven't been here in a year. Like, I don't know what you've been doing, but the you know, the chemicals are all over the place. So, and then now it's two years after that. So now we're three years down the road, and uh now they got a lawyer to basically write a letter that's to this guy who's and it said, Hey, you know, we want you to we don't want you to redo the pool, we want all the fucking money back, yeah, is what they say, or they were like, uh, you know, or we're gonna sue you. Yeah. So I got, you know, I spoke with this guy on the phone, and immediately I got off the phone, and what did I do? Insurance interlude, I called Pat. Right. So what was your advice with me on that? Because I was a little apprehensive to go out knowing that like they're going to use that as their, you know, I'm not a lawyer, right? So like you can't go back to a lawyer. I mean, I get, and you said, like, hey, it's okay, you you can go out and do that, but like, is that a regular inspection report? Like, do I charge more money for that? You know what I mean? And that's those are the things, like, again, and it's not so much like what it's clear classified as. It's more like when I get paid for an inspection, it's transactional. Like, it's like, hey, I'm coming here, I'm doing the report, you're giving me the money. That's it. Right. I'm also, you know, making you sign something that says, hey, it's a visual inspection. Uh I came, I touched, I put everything back the way that it was. Nothing, you know, I didn't break anything. Yeah. With this, you know, you go out there and not so much so many of the times now I'm talking now, you know, now the homeowner's there. And now I'm talking to the homeowner and I'm explaining to them that like uh the chemistry is all crazy. Right. And this didn't just happen overnight. Like, this is three years in the making here. And like, are you guys using a sequestering agent? Are we using chelating agents? Were you using any of these things that like help actually you know maintain and buff out the water so you're not getting, yeah, I don't know if buff out's the right word, but you you know what I mean? Like to not get extra staining and because most of the time it's metal and mineral, mineral staining, you know, and even even with that, a lot of times they'll come back and they're like, no, no, like it it was the plaster's fault. And this is where it gets sticky because like the plasterer who plastered the pool is not the guy who started up the pool, and it's not the guy who's servicing the pool. So that's why when we plaster a pool, I tell them, like, I am not the fucking plasterer, but I'm gonna be the foreman of the job. And you will work with me, you will, you know, everything you'll pay me, I'll pay them, everything will be fine. Like, we don't you don't have to work with them at all. If there's an issue, you come straight to me. But I'm plastering the pool. My my guy's plastering the pool, I'm starting up the pool. And basically, I'm telling you, if you want to, if you want a real warranty and you want us to warranty it, like we need to service the pool too. So from those three levels, like uh what sort of liability would they be into like the build the plasterer, the person who starts up the pool, and the servicer. Because there's a lot of guys that listen to the show that fall into all three of those categories. And like I said, if you want to be a legitimate company that stands behind your shit, do all three or get somebody to work with that, you know, does one and you do the other two. And that's a perfect way for if the person says, No, like we're not gonna use you as the person to service the pool. You say, okay, perfect, but then you know, make sure that you keep records of all of the, I mean, I probably wouldn't even say that to them, but you know, the only way that you can kind of save your ass with this, and this is what it always comes down to when I talk with these homeowners, I just say, look, it doesn't really matter what happened or what's going on. What matters is that you don't have any records of anything that's happened in the last three years. So, listeners, for me, if I took over a pool that someone else plastered and they were like, Hey, can you come start up the pool and service the pool? I would be like, Cool, I will. But for those first 10 days or, you know, whatnot, we're gonna come every day. Like, we're gonna put what the readings were, what we put in, and we're also gonna put a copy of the National Plasters Council, you know, 28-day startup, and you're gonna say, Hey, you guys need to follow this from day 10 to 28, because like I don't know anybody who really does a 28-day startup. There's guys that do fucking, you know, half-day startups here. Um, no, but I tell the I tell the homeowner, I'm like, you have to be an active participant in this, you know, if you really want uh the plaster to last. But it always comes down to this conversation at the end where I say, hey, like you don't have any records, so you really have no recourse to go back to this plasterer and say, you know, something's wrong. So is there an instance, Pat, where you've seen someone was successful to come back to the to the plasterer? Because I feel like I'm not gonna speak for all plasterers, but some of them do a shitty job, man. And so, you know, sometimes it's their fault, and I feel like they I feel like most of the time they are they're they're not the ones that have to stand on their work.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah, well, well, look, you led with it about you know, running your company where you're keeping keeping good records, you're asking good questions, you know, when something smells fishy, you're getting it and writing, you're getting it via email, the whole ball of wax, right? All that's really mission critical. And it kind of feels like a pain in the butt. I get it, but you know, when something comes up, like for this example, you got a $10,000 job, whatever it was, $6,000 job, and now you're getting asked for $50,000 for the for the whole pool. You know, so for this specific example, there's been enough time that's passed where it's not, and it's not reasonable to say that the plaster is responsible for this with you know someone else doing the startup and someone else doing the servicing for for three years, right? Or for one year even. So I don't there's not really any line in the sand with the amount of time that's got to go by, but I have seen the plasters, I I have seen them, you know, be on the hook if it's six months. Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

But if I go out, but if I go out and I fucking stick my foot in this lava, you know what I mean? Like, do I do I get caught and go downstream? Is there any chance that I, you know, I come out, I write a first I'm just gonna talk to the homeowner, you know what I mean? Then I'll write a report. And you know, they use that report in court. There's there's no there's nothing that I need to worry about on my end as far as like uh unless they want me to come to court, then I'm charging somebody extra money.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Exactly. J generally not, right? Again, I think you you'd be able to get out of that with a letter, but you know, I know you are you're you're objective in your reports, it's not skewed one way or the other, right? You're not the the the the person who referred you to go do this or is paying you to do that. It's not like you're you're angling for that person or anything like that. So you you're always objective, you keep good record, uh, you know, keep it a record of the PDF that you emailed, right? That goes that goes into storage there so that if anything comes up or it gets doctored, that you have a record of what you sent officially. And uh, you know, the the likelihood of you getting pulled into it is is very low. And the likelihood of if you did, of you getting out of it with one letter that says, here's the deal, this is what I did, um, is is very high. So yeah, I that's why I said, look, I mean, I again, I know you, I know the business, you know, objective with the with the report, keeping good records, all that stuff is important. You know, if if that weren't the case, then I'm I would probably say, like, eh, you may want to pass on this one, but you know, I it it seemed like a safe bet.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Yeah, I do I do up I do appreciate your your key canter with with with this, you know, because uh these are the types of jobs where I am kind of wary going into it. And like most of the time, you know, these aren't even the ones where something happens. It's the one where you go off on like a one-off and then it's a residential pool and something happens. So I there's some more stuff that I want to open with this, but I think that it's more appropriate to take it into another section with this. So I just want to close down um, you know, this interlude with saying again, Pat, thank you for your you know your honesty with this. I am gonna go out and you know offer my services to this guy because he did come as a referral. And I do want to help him out and I do want to go and educate the clients. It's just when people tell me that lawyers are involved and you own a company, like if you don't hesitate at least for one second to gather your thoughts and think about it and make sure that this is the right pathway for your company, then in plain English, you're a fucking idiot. You know, so you really just have to be careful with the people that you work with. And that's why, you know, asking the questions at the beginning is so, so really important to make sure that, you know, if it smells funny, usually it's shit. Probably funny. You know what I mean? So, you know, guys out there that are listening, thank you so much for tuning in. Um, you know, just use your gut and use your heads out there and uh, you know, make that money. So, Pat, thanks so much for coming on. If you guys want to look to California Pool Association, they do insurance all over the country, not just in California. So if you let them know, if you call in, uh, they'll actually set you up. And uh, they ask a lot of great questions too, and you'll find out um, you know, how your insurance kind of stacks up against theirs. And I've never met someone that called in that you know called me back and said that was a waste of my time. You know, they were always like, wow, the insight in that was was super great, whether they came on board or not. So, but we would love to have you on board, and they'll give you $100 off of your general liability insurance plan for the uh for an annual insurance plan. So, guys, we'll catch at you next week. And Pat, have a good one. Thanks so much. Hey, Steve, I'm gonna be able to get a lot of people. But each of them were $80 difference. And I was getting six of them. So I wouldn't say that it like it's a it's the biggest ticket item, but $80 times six or seven if I'm buying six or seven at once. Like that's that's what I started to quantify to them. I wrote the number down on a piece of paper. I'm like, this is how much the difference is. I'm like, so like I can't buy from you. I want to buy from you because I get credits and they all have these, you know, uh programs that you could, you know, be with them and yada yada, right? And they give you money back at the end or they give you a stipend or a rebate or whatever. But I can't, in my good conscience, you know, just throw away money to a distributor. Like they're not looking out for me like that. But it brings me to the bigger point, and that's like, okay, you go and you return and you get your chlorine, and now you're out at the pool. Like, are you really putting in what you're supposed to put in? And you know, it's debatable. Like everybody says, like, oh, you know, like some of the pools, and Rudy's talked about this before where he was like, I used to have pools where like in the winter time, like no one was using it, and like I maybe shocked the pool once every three months, you know, for a six-month period. So I shocked it two times in six months, which is fine. But like here in California, like the pool, it's you know, these pools are getting used a lot, right? So I'm not in Florida that they're not, it's just some of the pools don't get used, some of them do, and it just doesn't really doesn't really matter where you live in the country. It's more the family that's using the pool, right? If they're a family that uses the pool a lot, they're gonna use the pool out, they're gonna use the heater a lot. So I have families that use the pool every single day, and I have families that use the pool very seldomly. Um, but we always shock our pool to 10 parts per million, right? Just to make sure that if they are using it, and like, you know, that's part of the price, that's what I'm giving away, you know, because we for the residentials, we everybody includes the chemicals in the price, so we have to do that here. So a lot of times, like my guys, I look at through through Skimmer or Pool Brain, and I'm kind of like, what's going on here with this? Like, why is why are we putting in you know this amount or whatever? And there is a calculation for all of this, you know, and like for liquid chlorine, the number is 10.7 fluid ounces, right? And like as a pool person, you need to have that number literally ingrained in your brain. Right. And if you know how big the pool is and you divide that by 10,000 and you know how much you need to bring it up, like if you're at five parts per million and you want to bring it to 10, you got to bring it up five, right? So you would do five times 10.7 times if it was a 20,000 gallon pool, 20,000 divided by 10,000 is two. You multiply those three numbers together and it tells you exactly how much chlorine to put in the pool. That is how I figure out every single stop that I'm at, how much I'm putting in the pool.

SPEAKER_04 40:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

I take it a step further and I want to know how much does it take for this pool to go up one part per million. And if I have the time, I put in what it takes to bring it up one or two parts per million. And then I see what it went up. And if it actually goes up two parts per million and I plan for it to go up two parts per million, then it's a 20,000 gallon pool. Perfect. But a lot of times you'll go and you'll try and bring it up one part per million, but it'll go up three parts per million. Or you're trying to bring it up to one part per million and it doesn't even bring it up half, you know? And I've found that a lot of times, like the pool is just holding a little bit more water than I thought, or a little bit less water than I thought. So I always break it down to like what does it take for one part per million? And then you know, in the spas, it's especially important because if you're like, okay, I want to bring it up one, it's this. If I want to bring it up five, I just multiply that number times five, done.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

And still you still gotta be careful though. Because the calculations that we've all been taught as CPOs, length times width times average, average depth times 7.5. Okay. Right. We know this. We know this for it's ingrained. Okay. The problem is it doesn't account for the water and the piping and the filter and the heater. Oh, of course. You know, all that's circulating. So if you figured out you had a 15,000 gallon pool, what I've always recommended is add on another thousand.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Right. So usually what it comes down to is like it'll be like 13,700. So that would be a 15 for me.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Right? Or we have like one that's like 18,375, 20. You know, I just had one today where it came out to be 27,360. So I was like, okay, cool. That one's gonna be 30, because now you have you know a longer run, it's a bigger pool. But what really messed me up was, you know, I told you this, I mean we've told this story before, but the best question that I ever had in class from someone was, hey, like, where is the three and a half feet? Is it at the bottom of the, you know, of the tile marker, at the depth marker? Is it in the middle? Is it at the top? Like, is it at the coping? You know, and I was like, I have no idea. I was like, but I'll find out for you. And I called you, and you were like, you don't even really want to know the answer. You can get more confused, you know, because basically what you were telling me is that the pool itself, when it says three and a half feet, it's really three feet. Really, it's really missing six inches of water in there. So, you know, the calculation is more for me, it's more of a guesstimation. And this is why I play this game because I don't go off of, oh, it's 25,000 gallons. I do at the beginning, but then I start saying, Okay, I'm here, I just tested the chlorine, it's at zero. I'm gonna bring it up to 10 anyway. But right now, before I clean the pool, I'm gonna try and bring it up two. And I put in that much, you know, and then I clean the pool, and then I retest again, you know, in 30 minutes, 40 minutes when I'm done before I'm leaving and brushing the pool. And like, did it come to that or no? And it's harder in a bigger pool because it's gonna take more time, but like in a spa, you can figure I figured this out in three visits with my guy. Like, I went and I was like, we are gonna figure this out by a week's end, like how much it takes to get this pool, this spa one part per million. And we figured out it's four ounces, brings it up one part, you know. And once you figure that out, you could save yourself. I mean, Wayne, I I ran a company in New Jersey for, you know, eight, nine years, and we had at one point we had six trucks on the road with 12 guys out there and you know, 400 plus residential openings and closings and weekly services. So we figured out that the guys weren't doing these calculations every time. So we've made them start doing it, and basically our consumption saved almost $50,000 in chlorine in one season. So we're not talking about you know, 10% 10, 20, 50, we're not talking about hundreds of dollars, like we're talking about like thousands of dollars. Where if you're not really paying attention to what you're putting in the pool, you know, and I I'll take it a step further. Once we figure out at the commercial pool what it takes to bring it up one, we'll make a chart and we'll put it in the pump room. So now anybody that went there would know, like, hey, if you test and it's at this and you want to bring it up to 10, this is how much you need to put in, you know, because like we've already done this, we already know that's what it is. And I always say that like if you're walking into a pool and you don't know how much water is in there, and then you're never gonna know how much chemicals you need to put in, and you're never gonna know, you know, the levels, they're never gonna get to where you really, you know, need them to be, is really what it comes to.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Right, right. Well, you know, the other thing too is that I've had a lot of people, a lot of newbies in in the world go and walk up to a pool and just look at it and say, okay, that's 18,000 gallons, or that's 15,000 gallons. Are you absolutely sure? No. Okay, the unless you do the measurements and you you take into account the excess water that's within all the working pieces, you're again, and you just like you said, you're not going to be able to know how much of a treatment chemical you need to add in order to fix the problem. You know, you just don't know. You don't know. So again, it's very important. Hello. One last thing I want to add before we leave. There's been some discussion on the talking pools uh little group that we have on a Facebook Messenger about monoprosulfate. Steve, I don't know you saw that recently, but there's been some confusion with it. And I just want to touch base on it very, very quickly because we've already spent almost a half an hour just kind of talking. But monoprosulfate, we all know it's it's unfortunately called non-chlorine shock. It's really not a shock, it's an oxidizer. Don't get me started. But with monoprosulfate, the idea about chlormines and and what it does and what it doesn't do is kind of built into it. So I just wanted to kind of re remind everybody what monoprosulfate does and doesn't do. First of all, monoprosulfate does not remove existing combined chlorines. Does not. Okay. The only thing that will remove existing combined chlorines is breakpoint chlorination. Without getting into a whole lot of detail, that's pretty much it. What monoprosulfate does do is that it prevents the formation of new chloramines. So you have an indoor pool, doesn't matter how many gallons, but you have an indoor pool and you dose it with monopersulfate. And if there was no existing chloramines before you added your monoprosulfate, you're good to go. If you have the same indoor pool and there was measurable combined chlorine, you got to get rid of it first, then add your monoprosulfate product. And you add monoprosulfate, the dose is two pounds per 10,000 gallons. And we're talking about dosages early, so kind of funny. Uh so two pounds per 10,000 gallons. And again, the good thing is that you can get back into the pool within half an hour to 45 minutes. You don't have to wait until chlorine levels drop. It's a pretty easy product to apply. Uh the gotchas, you know, no good deeds go unpunished. The gotchas with monopersulfate is first of all, it's got a very low pH. Uh, so you got to be careful. You don't want to overdose. You know, more is not necessarily better with really any treatment product, but particularly with monopersulfate. So you because if you do overdose, you're going to bottom out your pH. The second thing with monopersulfate, and this is well known within the testing industry, is that it does interfere with the combined chlorine test and the total chlorine test. Uh, but there are ways to get around that. There are uh interference removing treatment products or reagents that will get rid of that interference that monoprosulfate has so that you'll be able to get a good, accurate, free chlorine reading, and then of course a total chlorine reading. But with monoprosulfate, it's really good for indoor pools. There's no smell associated with it. That doesn't mean you can't use it on an outdoor pool. Eh, of course you're good. Um, but usually more so on indoor pools because they tend to have a little bit heavier bather load than your standard residential pool. So that's pretty much my soapbox. I'm stepping back down. Steve, do you have anything to add to it before we No?

SPEAKER_03 49:23

I mean, like, you know, monopersulfates, they they work well. It's just like the only people that I know that like want to use that and do use it are like professional sports teams and like swimsuits, or like YMCAs that like have thousands of people coming through the doors to use the pool like every day. You know, that's where it's going to be really most beneficial. But for the most part, like uh we don't carry monopersulfate on us.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is there and it's ran, it's being used, and it came up as a discussion point. So I just wanted to touch base with everybody and kind of let you know what's going on. So, ladies and gentlemen, uh, that's it for today. Excuse me. So, again, here at Talking Pools, if you have a question for us or a topic you'd like us to cover, please feel free and send something to talkingpools at gmail.com and uh it'll be forwarded to us if we use it on air. We'll send you a little thank you gift. Uh again, don't don't forget that this Friday, that the Talking Pools finalist, uh, the mentorship award will be announced this coming Friday, the the 17th of July. I'm looking forward to to seeing the names on that. That's all I got for today, Stephen. Have a good one. My best to the family, ladies and gentlemen. Take care. Bye bye. Have a good one.