Your Biggest Liability Is Your Customer

The Liability That Could Cost You Everything

Servicing a pool is one thing.

Being held responsible for someone else's decisions is another.

This week on Thursdays with Stephen & Wayne, the conversation dives into one of the most uncomfortable realities facing pool professionals today: what happens when you identify a safety issue, document it, recommend the fix... and the client refuses to act?

From commercial hotels and apartment complexes to homeowner associations and residential accounts, the discussion explores the legal gray areas surrounding code compliance, liability, documentation, and knowing when it's time to walk away from a client.

The episode also revisits the ongoing issues surrounding the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, discusses lessons learned from a complex commercial automation installation, and explains why documenting safety concerns may be one of the most valuable services a pool professional can provide.

If you've ever wondered, "How many times do I have to tell a client before it's no longer my problem?"—this episode is for you.

In This Episode

•  Updates on the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool 
•  Why source water matters 
•  Commercial pool liability 
•  What happens when clients ignore safety recommendations 
•  How to properly document code violations 
•  Protecting your company when contracts end 
•  Commercial vs. residential liability concerns 
•  Certified letters, emails, and documentation best practices 
•  Managing clients who refuse to make required repairs 
•  Annual safety reviews and follow-up recommendations 
•  Insurance considerations every pool professional should understand 
•  Occurrence vs. claims-made insurance policies 
•  Commercial automation and salt chlorination lessons learned 
•  Real-world troubleshooting with commercial chemical controllers 
•  The importance of manufacturer support on large installations 
•  CPO Instructor training opportunities 

Key Takeaway

Finding a safety issue isn't enough.

Documenting it.

Communicating it.

Following up appropriately.

And knowing when to walk away...

...may ultimately be what protects your business when something goes wrong.

Sometimes the biggest risk in the pool industry isn't the water—it's the paperwork you didn't create.

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LaMotte Company is a leading manufacturer of water quality testing products & pool test kits

California Pool Association
Pool Industry Trade Organization

CMAHC
The Council for the Model Aquatic Health Code promotes health & safety at public swimming pools

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Happy Thursday, everybody, and welcome to the Talking Pools Podcast. Thursdays with Stephen Wayne. As always, hope you all had a good, happy, healthful, and safe week. We've got some various variety of topics to talk about today, but I want to start off real quick because of geography. As most of you know, I live in the northeast part of Maryland. I'm I'm probably about 50 miles away from Washington, D.C. And when I was a kid, there we used to have a lot of school trips down to DC. And one of the neat things we always saw was the reflecting pool. Now I know there's been a lot of talk about what's going on with the reflecting pool. I know Rudy has talked about it a little bit, but uh I something I read this morning. Well, first of all, the reflecting pool has algae problems, big time algae problems. Instead of being, you know, normal, you know, take on the blue tint of the paint, and you know, the water is not clear, it's green, algae all over the place. And there have been a lot of spec there's been a lot of speculation as to what to do to fix it. Some people said UV stuff, some people said hydroxide, that was the latest thing. They were dumping hydrogen peroxide into the water. But then I read this morning, you know, and and I always do this, and Steve, I know you do too, is that if there's ever an issue with water, sometimes we have to go to the source water to find out when they're adding water to it, is there something bad in the source water that's causing the problems and you you treat it and deal with it appropriately? Well, apparently what they did was they pumped water from the tidal basin by the Potomac River into the reflecting pool to fill it up. The tidal basin. That's almost saying tidal toilet bowl. It's just tons of bacteria and and and other nasty things that are in the water that they just now, you know, added fuel to the fire. And and I know that that our president wanted to paint the pool to solve the problem. Well, that tells you something right then and there. But uh it's just a comedy of errors. And i I we're talking millions and millions of gallons of water.

SPEAKER_06 1:46

I think why wouldn't why wouldn't they just put fresh water in there?

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Well, that's the thing, you know. They thought they were putting in fresh water.

SPEAKER_06 1:55

That's it's not it's not salt water, but it's I mean, I guess you could call it fresh water, sure.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:01

But like uh I guess what I guess what I I guess I should rephrase what I'm saying. Like, why aren't they using like treated water? Yeah, that's coming that's coming from Washington, DC that they're not paying for in the first place.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

That that's exactly right. So who knows? This has just been a comedy of errors. I don't even know the name of the people who are supposedly trying to fix the problem or even taking care of the reflecting pool. But it is, among other things, a a pretty bad embarrassment because it's such a pretty, pretty thing. Uh if you've ever been there, you know it. It's in between the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument, and it's just beautiful. And uh well, not right now, but it normally it is. So it's just a comedy of errors, and and I'm I'm fascinated to see what's gonna happen down the road. I'm sure somebody's gonna say, fill it in.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

Uh I mean they might have to drain it soon.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

I th I think they are gonna have to drain it, and like you said, find you know, good source water, treated source water to fill it up. But again, you're talking millions and millions of gallons of water. So somebody's gonna have to pay for that, and you know it's gonna be the taxpayer. So I'll sit down off my political soapbox and turn everything over to Steve. I'm sure we're gonna get emails about that. But yeah, Steve's got some some things he wants to talk about based on on what we last talked about, some some updates for us.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

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SPEAKER_06 5:29

Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Insurance Interlude with your host, Steve Sherwood, and as always, our guest, Pat Rignone, California Pool Association. So, Pat, thanks for coming. We really appreciate you. Um, always love having you here. So you had me. We appreciate it. So we talk a lot, a lot about a lot of different stuff on here with like uh just like the things to do and what not to do, and you know, just really how much liability that we're really open to as, you know, pool business owners out here, right? Is really what it comes down to, is what I figured out doing this shit with you. Um, I had mentioned in one of the shows that we got let go by one of our you know bigger clients. I'm like, I always try and find out if if it didn't go super south or like sour. Like I always try and follow up with an email or a phone call and I say, hey, like, is there anything that we could have done differently? Like, you know, are you guys happy? Like, what could we have done? You know, what could we have done differently? And uh, you know, they gave us written notice, and then I had called the manager who I didn't even know because he's like the fourth new manager in the last like second, in like the last two years or something like that. Yeah, that's tough. And I just I explained to him, like, hey, you know, this was the stuff that's kind of still on the table that you guys need to fix, like your drains, and you know, they're they're coming up for renewal, and like uh, you know, you need your license with this, that, and the other thing. So if you need help with that, I'm more than happy to help. And he basically was like, man, he was like, Thank you so much for that. But he was like, uh, you know, the reason that we're really letting you go is because uh, you know, the health department came and like the the pool water levels were kind of all over the place. And I love how people say like all over the place, you know what I mean? Like specifically, there was things there was there was one or two specific things that have always been through the roof. And I wanted to be like, well, I'm the fucking one who told you guys about that, you know, four years ago. But that manager is, you know, at a different place now. Yeah, right. So, like I guess my question is, and I put this out in in the show with Wayne, and there was really no answer. I wasn't looking for an answer per se. But what on the liability end, like what type of liability am I open to? Because I'm telling these people, I told them already, like, hey, you know, like you guys need to drain your pool. We offer to drain your pool, we told you how much it was gonna cost. You said no, we'll take care of it, and then you never did it. So again, like I'm not going to come to you every two weeks and be like, hey, like you need to drain your pool. Like, what's going on here? You know, like uh, if you're in charge of that, then you guys be in charge of that. And if you don't ever want your hotel pool to be down, then don't fucking drain it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, but again, like we always talk about protocol and you know, sending a text and sending an email and sending what whatever, but just reiterating the fact that, hey, this needs to get done. But now, because they had gone through so many different managers, like I had already gotten tired of telling them. So, like, I didn't I wasn't leading with that anymore, you know? So me and these people didn't even meet, they came in with a new crew, and within a month or two, we were, you know, we were shit camped. So now that we're leaving at the end of this month, what if something happens after we're gone? Like, how is there a way that I I should protect myself, like with them that basically says, like, hey, like services are rendered and paid for, like anything else that were to happen at this place, you know, we're not responsible for it. That's the first thing, especially because like if they start doing it in-house and they don't have their, you know, their LA County technician's license and they get in trouble for that or whatever it is, like we could now get in trouble for that because we're the last professionals on site. And it brings me to the question of like the people that are still my clients, right? I still have some of them that don't want to do the shit that we're asking them to do, like the 15-minute timer. It's just a push button on one of my clients. You know, one of my other clients doesn't have the depth markers for the not the depth markers, the international no diving sign next to the depth marker on the deck. And their excuse was, well, the health department came and they didn't cite us for this, so we're not gonna do it. So, in a you know, in a sense like that, you know, and then they still haven't fixed the handrail either. That's obviously super serious, and we want to send an email and a certified letter for that. But like, what are the levels to this? And like again, what are some things that I cause like we can't change the past, right? Like, we just can make ourselves better in the future. So, like, how can I protect myself in the future? And what recourse of action do people have against us now that we're not there anymore?

SPEAKER_05 9:45

Yeah, yeah. But a lot in there for sure. Yeah, I hear you, just business, business owner to business owner, losing a client uh happens, but man, I I don't mind losing a fight, but I sure mind missing it. You know, of course, yeah. Yeah, so it's tough when you got rotating decision makers. You know, look, I think, you know, so to answer the like how every two weeks or how frequent yet to remind them to say, hey, we talked about this, you need to fix it. If I think about it, you know, and again, I I think any sort of legal like court or any sort of legal dispute that that I've seen for this, there isn't really a black and white. It's, you know, what have you made a reasonable effort, really? And so, you know, I think you you just use common sense with it. You know, look, if you have rotating decision makers, you know, potentially you're like, hey, you know, here's a you know, state of the state report, which includes that information. And every time you got a new manager or a new decision maker, it's just as easy as emailing them that and letting them know what, you know, where things have been over the course of the over the course of the service career there. But um, but yeah, look, I think to have, you know, every couple of weeks, every month, every visit, like that's I don't think that's a reasonable uh that's like a reasonable amount that anyone would expect. You know, I think at least once a year, you know, if I think about like an insurance cycle, right? We normally touch bases because like no one wants to talk to their insurance guy or gal all the time, right? Like you normally talk to your insurance guy or gal when something went wrong, not just to say hello. You know, so we're we're conscious of that. But we normally do a six-month check-in if it's a 12-month policy, and then obviously once we're getting closer to a renewal, then you know, we'll end up getting updates on the business, making sure things haven't changes, operations still the same, what are your projections, and and and, you know, so I I would think that like everything that I've seen, because I don't know what the contract looks like. If you have an annual contract, right, or if it's a multi-year contract, I would at least figure it out. Or I'd at least deliver the information annually as just kind of a good rule of thumb, you know, but there's not really an expectation from an insurance or a legal standpoint of like super frequent communication until the badgering them until they fix it, right? If it's if it's so dangerous you feel like you're gonna get drugged into something, then probably I would, you know, just end the relationship. But if it's one of those, hey, this isn't compliant, you need to, you know, need to drop uh, you know, drop a you know a push button here or or something simple there, you know, I I wouldn't necessarily, you know, get off of the account for that. But yeah, I think at least annually, you know, you'd you say, hey, by the way, did kind of an annual review of the of the account, and you know, these are the things that are still outstanding. I think that's probably a good practice to have.

SPEAKER_06 12:28

Sure. No, and like uh I'm glad that you said that because there are contracts that I have that are multiple years. So so bigger hotel chains will try and lock you down for a couple years so you don't change the price, you know? So they'll give you like a 2% or a 3% to do that year, but so they know that you're gonna basically be locked in for the next couple of years almost at the same price is really what they're what they're trying to do. Um, but what about with this client that I'm not there anymore? Am I, you know, once my contract is up with them at the end of the month, is there anything that I need to do on my end to shore up? Like they sent a 30, 30-day written notice. Yes. And like that had, you know, my contract in there, their contract in there, and basically like a letter that said, like, this is our 30-day notice of, you know, basically that we're letting you guys go.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:19

Is there anything that, you know, we need to follow up with on the back end to make sure that we're like, hey, like this relationship is done? Because, like, again, if they are doing the pool without their county license or, you know, whatever it may be, like that could come back to bite us in the ass. Is there anything we have to do?

SPEAKER_05 13:37

So generally, I mean that's that's a business decision. I mean, you don't want to kind of rehash the bat or whatever on the way out the door uh thing normally, just in case the opportunity presents itself, you know, down the road or they're unhappy with the next person or company they hire. But the dealer's choice on that, from an insurance standpoint, there's two types of policies when it comes to liability. And I'm gonna keep it real high level, happy to dig as deep as you want to, but there's policies that are occurrence-based, and there's policies that are claims made policies. And that's really just the the two takeaways from this is ask your insurance company if it's a occurrence-based policy or it's a claims made. Claims made policies, well, so our policies occurrence, and most of them are to my knowledge. I think there might be one or two claims made. And occurrence, you know, you don't necessarily have to buy like tail coverage or you know, you have to buy extra coverage to make sure you're covered for a period of time after you know a policy cancels. Claims made policies are the opposite, like it has to happen during the policy period, and then if you like retire or close the business, then you should buy extension or tail coverage so that if something happens in the subsequent years, then you would have coverage kick in. So again, our policy, you don't have any insurance concerns on our policy. It's an occurrence-based, right? I mean, you know, it it's gonna cover, you know, it'll cover anything that happened during the time of the contract, as long as your policy was active and and and. But, you know, it's uh it's something you definitely want to check on, you know, like EO coverage, employment practices, like those are t generally tend to be claims made where if you stop paying for insurance and your insurance stops and then something happens a month later or three months later or three years later, you know, your insurance is not going to cover it outside of the policy period with a little bit of wiggle room. So, you know, I think it's it's it's it's it's kind of a discussion more so for when you stop having insurance or you close the business or you retire. You know, that's kind of when it's appropriate to discuss it. But, you know, as far as you're concerned, you know, the other point I'd make is that I would be a little bit more cautious if it were a residential versus, you know, a commercial property, because for sure a commercial property will have, I mean, they're going to end up having another company on site for sure. They have to, it's part of regulations, you know. But a residential customer might be like, hey, I'm I'm firing you, I'm gonna start doing my own pool. And then I'd be a little bit more concerned about any sort of lingering liability because there may not be another licensed, you know, certified pool professional on site after that. So you know, it's kind of counterintuitive, but I would I would certainly send an email to the residential customer and just say, Hey, just I get it. It was nice knowing you. Here's the issues that I'd identified, you know, and and you know, uh, you should fix it. And I think if you do that, then that's a reasonable notification. But again, a commercial property, you know, you generally you're not gonna be the last pool professional on site probably the next day.

SPEAKER_06 16:34

No, of course. I I think that like my concern is that they were saying, like, okay, we're basically gonna start doing it in-house. Like we have somebody on staff that's certification that's certified, which I know that they don't have anybody on staff that's certified, and I know that they have some nobody on staff that's gonna go do this. So um hopefully they're getting another company. You know what I mean? Because if not, then then that then maybe they're you know, now maybe they're having their guys, you know, take care of it. And in LA County, it's really confusing. Like, I can't tell you how many people call me, you know, how many calls I get a week, and they're like, hey, you know, I need to get my my license. I I need my CPO. And I'm like, Do you need this for like an HOA? Or and they're like, Yeah, for an apartment complex. And I'm like, okay, well, you actually need your LA County technician's license, you know, because the state of California wants you to get your CPO. LA County says, no, no, no, no, no, you pay us for our certification. You know, it's really what it comes down to. So it's just one of those things that's like not super clear, and the steps that you have to go through are not are not super clear. So that's why like it just opens everybody in this, you know, in this county uh up to a lot of different liabilities that are it's just it's just a bit different from the rest of the country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:39

Oh, and look, I mean, you know, like even for that account, a commercial account, you can send a a politely worded call it a dismount letter, right? Like, hey, was was great. There's no just to confirm there's no pending balances or invoices due to me. And by the way, these are the issues identified, you know, for the next company. Yeah, I just want to make sure I put it on your radar. And then, you know, I I think you can kind of backdoor it with the whole like you've got a zero balance on the uh on on the the the invoice sheet and then throw that in there. And I that's more than reasonable accommodations, you know, for for for it to say, hey, like I I let you know and you said you were gonna take care of it and God bless you, but you know, I'm off the account, and it's a easy, easy and nice way to say like I'm off the liability on this account as well.

SPEAKER_06 18:22

Yeah, it's just like uh the more clients that I get, like the more obvious it is that all of these people are not fucking changing the things that we're asking them to change. And it's just like getting super frustrating because again, like I always do an at least a visual inspection at the beginning. You know, I'll usually do a report if they pay for it, and I'll definitely send an email follow-up that says, you know, hey, this is exactly what's going on. This is the stuff that you need to fix. But, you know, now I'm getting to the point where it's like, like, we don't want to see that, or and it's just like, fuck, man, like, why are you making me make a decision about having you on board or not? You know, it's just it's not your opinion either. It just puts us in a really uncomfortable position because, like, yeah, you know, these business opportunities, I would love to say that they they come every day, but they don't. Right. You know, so you work really hard to work with the people that you're working with. And, you know, when you find a good relationship, you're like, oh, this is this is the type of place we really want to take care of, you know. It's like 15 condos, you know, 20 condos instead of 400 or 500, you know, 800 doors. So like these are the ones that you like, right? Yeah. Again, it just gets scary because it's like, hey, these are some things that we talked about, and we really need you to change by law, and you're just uh, you know, you're just not ready to change it. So it's kind of just us in a weird position, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 19:48

That's probably a good way to word it too. It's like, but just to be clear, this isn't my opinion, this is code, you know, and yeah, that's probably a a real good thing to put in a follow-up email if you've identified something. And that, like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, you're, you know, you you your your CYA is is increased if you can cite that.

SPEAKER_06 20:05

And yeah, it's up to them to to do something about it. Right. All right. So I think I gotta get to some of these follow-up emails, Pat. On this ship, um, we may we way we way ran over our time today, but uh I do, you know, we this was a topic that, you know, got kind of serious because again, you know, you may leave a few clients, you may pick up a few clients. Um, you know, and it's always weird when you uh part ways, right? Because you never know what's gonna happen. I had a client and she she praised us under the stars, man. She was like, hey, like we can't afford you anymore. You know, we we loved having you, and you guys were were the best thing since sliced bread. And uh, you know, best of luck in the future. Um I sent her her final bill and uh she didn't like the what was on the bill. She was like, I don't know why I need to pay for this, and there's a late fee on here and whatever. And she sent back like the nastiest email. She was like, you know, the service sucked and like you guys have been terrible. And I was like, You just sent an email last week saying that we were the way the wind's blowing. Great, you know. So that's scary because no matter what, like uh, you know, if somebody sours on you, then that's you know, you don't know what they're gonna do, right? And I always say that you don't know what people are gonna do when something happens to their significant other, you know, when something happens to their kid or something happens to their pet. So those are some parting words to leave you guys with. And obviously, if you guys need help with your insurance, California Pool Association is here for all of your needs. And if you give them a call and you mention the Talking Pools podcast, they will give you $100 off on your annual liability insurance. So we always appreciate the you know, California Pool Association and uh reach out if you have any needs. So, Pat, thank you so much for coming on and guys, thanks for listening. And we'll be talking at you next week. Have a good one. Thanks, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

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SPEAKER_00 23:26

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SPEAKER_06 23:52

Yeah, so what's up, everybody? I just wanted to like build on what we what we had left with last week, because I had said like at the end of the show that like we had got let go by one of our clients, and they were like one of our bigger clients, which, like I said, it's it's mutually parting ways, which I which is what I thought it was. But I called the the new manager who I haven't ever met in person. Like we've only email exchanged. And I just, you know, after we sent that email, I just followed up with a phone call and I was just like, hey, I know that we never got a chance to to sit down and and meet, um, but I just wanted to go over uh like a couple things because we're not they don't have like a real exit interview, you know what I mean? Like, so I I I give them a call and I was like, hey, I a couple things I wanted to tell you about that, you know, whoever takes care of the pool, whether you're doing it in you know in-house or you're hiring another company, they have to have these certain certifications or whatever. And like, you know, if you want some help with that, we can we can definitely help. And after he listened to my spiel, he was kind of like, yeah, he's like, you know, I really appreciate that. And we I definitely will, you know, keep your info and and let you know. But, you know, more or less, what happened is the health department came in and the water levels were kind of all over the place. And, you know, upper management said that they, you know, just wanted to kind of clean house and just, you know, just get, you know, have them do it for a while and then hire another company or or whatever it is. So that's fine. I'm cool with that. But here's the thing, Wayne. I'm the one who told them about their levels being wildly outside of range. So, like when we first came on, they were using these chlorine genies because there was two pools, one like on a upper upper deck on like the 26th floor, and one was on like the fourth floor or something, right? So the pool downstairs, they were using these things called chlorine genies. And they had let go of that guy last year. They also let go of that engineer. So, like, the machines need constant monitoring and maintenance, more so maintenance of like acid washing the cells once a week and this part broke, you know, check this tubing, change it out. It's almost like peristaltic pumps and liquid chlorine or muriatic acid. Like you're constantly messing and changing parts and stuff. So when I had first come in, it took us a really long time to get the contract because they had a contract with a guy where they didn't have a 30-day out, they had to go through the rest of the year. So they were like, we want to bring you on, but like we gotta wait. So I was like, okay, cool. I was like, when we come on, I was like, we have to drain the pools, like we have to drain every body of water that you have. There's four of them. We gotta drain all, start over. So they never did that. They they would drain the spas when they got so bad that I would tell them, like, hey, we need to pull a full stop here. But they never wanted to like close the pool for any period of time. So they never drained the pool. Okay. So they went through like four, three different directors and like four sets of like there was two guys that had the same position. They're like the assist, both the assistant general manager. There is no general manager, like it's the two of them. And we went through like four sets of different people. So it opens me up because I always think like with every client, like every time we've ever gotten fired, even unless it went really sour, and I was like, you know, this is why we're parting ways. I would call them or I'd text them, and I'd be just be like, hey, like, no problem that we're parting ways, but I just wanted to follow up with you. Like, was there a reason that you are getting rid of us? Or like, and sometimes it's that they don't have the money, you know, like their husband passed away six months ago and they they, you know, they can't afford it anymore, or you know, they're moved, like they're gonna move and they, you know, they need something cheaper, whatever. But it brings me to the question of like, and I have a few pools like this right now that I'll talk about after I'm done with this story, but like, what is an appropriate amount of time? Like, I came out, I sent them an initial email, or like I do an inspection and I send them their inspection report, and like that is like my hey, we need to do this. You know, so like the pools weren't not clear, just the cyanuric acid was really high. You know, the cyanuric acid and the TDS were both through the roof, right? And I was like, hey, like we're using tablets here. This is the only thing that you guys, you know, we're using liquid and you guys are putting in the tablets here. Like, there's no automation system. Like, we have to drain the pool. Like, not like half of the pool, we need to drain the whole pool. So, like when the new manager came in, talk to him about it. Oh, yeah, we'll get to that. Never did. They lasted uh, you know, four months, five months. New manager comes in. Hey, we need to drain the pool. Like, we've still never drained the pool. And now, you know, manager number four comes in, who I I didn't get to tell this to because again, I've never like when I had to go there and meet with them, anytime that we were there cleaning the pool, they were in their like morning meetings because they have a really big engineering department. They have like, you know, hour-long meetings with you know, before they get started for their day, because their night shift guys are getting off, the day shift guys are coming on, and they're all this is the only time they're together. So it just makes me think about like, you know, should I have emailed them more about this?

SPEAKER_04 28:32

You know, and there's a point at which you gotta stop.

SPEAKER_06 28:35

No, of course. And but but you know, but but that's the question though. It's like, and then also like I, you know, it's not something that I was thinking about on a daily basis. Like they, you know, if you tell someone something, you know, 15, 20 times, and every time I show up, I'm doing a full we're doing a full panel test every week, and every time I show up, I'm doing a full panel test, and I'm like, hey, the levels are still through the roof, like we really need to drain the pool. And then, you know, comes back to bite me in the ass that we weren't doing what we were supposed to do, which obviously I know is not the case, right? Because look, we're there fucking three days a week. We're there three days a week, you guys are there four days a week. Like, this is this is again, this is a partnership, and like I've told you this a bunch of times, but with stuff like this and then other stuff, like I have a pool where they don't want to get the depth, the deck markers that have no diving symbols on them. And like in the in the LA county code, it says you need to have those. Like, this is it's it's very black and white. And then you also have to have like a timer that like goes on. This you go over to the spa and you just click it twice and it just kicks on a motor, and the motor stays on forever if you don't go back and touch the button two more times. It just stays on 24-7 the jets. So, like, you need a 15-minute timer on there or a 20-minute or 30-minute timer or whatever it is. And you know, I told them about this, and this is a different client. This is like one of my other active clients, and I told them about it, and he was like, Yeah, but like the health department came and they didn't say anything about it. So, like, I don't really, you know, the property is beautiful, I don't really want to change it, you know. Like something like that, you know, what do you what do you do? You know, and I don't know if there's a clear answer in this to like walk away or whatever, but I've had clients in the past where they've had they renovated the pool and they didn't put in a handrail, like where the steps are. So it's just missing a handrail, you know. And with something like that, that's super serious, right? So, like with that, you need to send an email and then if they don't fix it, then send a certified letter or whatever if you want to keep them, if you want to keep them on. But it got me thinking like there's gotta be some way that like a pool brain or skimmer, you know, if you guys are listening out there, there there should be some space that I can go into my app and I can say, Hey, I flagged this stuff that's going on, like and it goes into a category. And then like there's a reminder in two weeks that says, like, hey, like, did they get this fixed yet? You know, like, or should you reach out to them uh again? You know, and again, like I said, there's no answer to this, to this question it itself, but like that would obviously be super helpful because right now we're super busy more so putting out fires than we are looking to, you know, get new business at at this point.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

And this time, I think it's a matter of liability, isn't it? I mean, if if something happens, God forbid, at the facility, you know, you're gonna be included in that lawsuit. Of course. But if you can prove that, hey, you know, I warned them, they said this or they didn't want to do this, I continuously warn them, then you're kind of covered. So I'm you know, I I don't know if they even if if these people even think beyond that, you know, or think up to that point that that that it's a liability issue. I don't know. It it's it's I can understand your uh your position.

SPEAKER_06 31:46

No, I'm like, there are certain things that don't, you know, hey, this is this is broken, you know, hey, this is leaking, like, and they're not fixing it or or whatever. Like that's that's one thing. Or but like now we're getting into like safety stuff, you know, and it begs the question of like how far do you go with this? Because I've I've went to like cities before and done consulting for you know townships and cities, and they have me come out and I'm like, your pool isn't VGB, you know, like this and like it's and this was you know not 2008, it was in the 2020s for sure, you know. So like stuff like that. Now you have your your name on something like that, right? So if if they don't fix it and something happens, like uh you could you could be liable for for that stuff too.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

What if they got around that? That that a rail of EGB thing.

SPEAKER_06 32:36

So it's just more because the like they are the county.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 32:41

So like no one from the health department ever comes around. You know what I mean? Like they're just like, hey, like everything's good, and they're like, hey, everything's good. And again, like there's some cities that just uh they're always putting out dump surfiers, right? So they're they're not concerned with they're not concerned about something until something happens. And that's usually, you know, that's usually how laws are made, that's usually how stuff happens. So it's uh, you know, just a weird, a weird topic, right? Where like how far do you take it without and now like you're up their ass and they, you know, they're like, hey, we're moving in a different direction. And you're like, and sometimes it's like, okay, cool, like I've I've rid myself of this, it's better off. Right. Um, but you know, I just don't know the answer to this. And it's something that I'm super intrigued about because again, like I just got tired of of telling them about the same shit over and over and over again. And then uh, you know, it comes out to look like we like we were the ones that didn't know what we were what we were doing, you know? And it's like uh we were never gonna you were never gonna pay us to drain the pool. Like draining the pool was actually on you guys because we offered to drain the spas. We said, hey, it's this much for us to come and drain. They're like, no, no, no, we got guys on staff that are here all day long, like they'll take care of us. So it's like if the levels are crazy and you gotta drain the pool, like you know who's draining the pool? You right. So it's just just like I said, just a weird situation. So anyway, moving, moving on from that, uh I did find I wanted to give you an update. Remember, I told you about that commercial client that I had, and we installed commercial, well, we installed the Pentair in telechem commercials, right? And it was the first time that I ever wanted to hook it in with a with a salt cell, and I had no idea like how it worked, and I like read the manual and I was like, this is fucking confusing, like this doesn't really make much sense. So I had asked my reps from Penthair, and they're not there, they're not at Pentair anymore. Um, but I asked this guy to come out because I was like, this is a pretty decently sized job here, plain English, I don't want to fuck it up. Uh when it's a big job and it's a commercial client, like I want, I want the manufacturer to come and put eyes on this. I would never want to install something, and then there something happens and they come out and they're like, What is this? Like, why did you why did you do it like why did you do it like this? And I found out some stuff that I needed to do. Like we installed it and I had them come out and check it. And he was like, I don't like the way the salt cell is. He was like, It's too close to a right angle, and we just did it like that because of spacing that we had. It's like right up against the wall and it's kind of tight. And uh, he was like, I don't, I don't like that, you know. He's like, Can we like just move that pipe over this way and come back around? And you know, we don't want to have any gas build up at any corners or or points or anything like that. So I was like, okay, perfect, we'll change it. And that's that's the type of stuff that I want to hear. Like, that's what we're here for. Like, you know, to bring you guys in to say, hey, this is what we need to do, and I'll do whatever you need me to do to make sure that it's that it's right. But they uh they couldn't figure out why these salt cells that I had on there weren't working. And basically what's supposed to happen with the ORP is that you know, if you set the set point below the ORP, the salt cell is gonna kick on and try and bring it up to that set point number, and then it would automatically kick off. If there was an issue where it got and you can set it where it's like minus 20 or minus 30 or minus 50 or whatever, you can set it so if it gets that far away from where you wanna be, like under where you want to be, like set point 750, and now you're running at 700 and below, and the salt cell hasn't kicked on, or sometimes the salt cells need to be cleaned, or there's sometimes there's not enough salt in the pool. There's a you know a myriad of reasons why the salt cell won't sort of kick on and start making chlorine. So the way that we wired them, they both were they both were hot. So the and that's like I didn't know if we had wired it correctly because it's we needed to use like a third relay in there. And like when the Pentair guys came out, I work with a lot of Chris's there and they're they're all really good. You know, they came out and he was just like, you know, I don't know what's going on. And I was like, you know what? Thank you so much for saying that because like I don't know what the fuck's going on either. And I thought I was crazy, you know. I'm like, I'm getting to the point where like I'm here spending, you know, half hour, hour just messing with this machine and it's getting old. You know, it's been going on for a while. So calls through all of his like wizard people in the company, and they are all like that something's wrong here, like something's off, you know. So he was like, All right, he so he ordered these commercial cells, and that's what it was that we need to put in the commercial cells, the comms that you know works with the commercial one. So that's great that we figured that out. But I told him on the phone when he called me yesterday, I was like, now you're asking me to buy a, you know, between five and twenty thousand dollars salt cell, and we need two of them, you know. So like the the commercial cells get very, very, very expensive. So like if you're putting in a commercial cell and you're putting in a commercial and telecam, like all of a sudden this becomes a fucking, you know, really, really expensive endeavor. And like not everybody can uh can afford this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 37:38

And like I work with some hotels where they're like, okay, cool, this is the, you know, and I always thought that with like chloriking. And chlorquin got bought out, I forget by who, but I always used to sit there because I would go into these new clients' places and I would be like, You have a defunct salt cell here, a king claw one. And like the big king chlorore one was like 15 or 25,000. Like it was ridiculously expensive. So all this equipment stuff is just getting very, very, very expensive. And like if I spec'd it out in the future, I would use the Pentair Intellichem commercial just because I like that it comes on a board and it comes with the two parasaltic pumps right there that, you know, that go on for the acid and the chlorine. So it's an easier installation, but like I'm never gonna put a commercial salt cell connected to to this thing, you know. Like I would rather use like a third-party salt cell and like keep it really low so it keeps a residual of like one part per million or like three parts per million. Figure that out, you know, and kind of go from there. Because with these commercials, like when you do a plan check and you have the the health department come out, they are also going to spec out this job for you. So now they're gonna say, and this is why we got the IC60s for a 12,000 gallon pool and a 5,000 gallon spa. Like way, way, way oversized for these. I actually think the smallest one would be more appropriate, but they want you to be able to produce all of the chlorine that's needed by just using that salt cell. So, like if you had like a 30,000 gallon pool or a 60,000 gallon pool, you would actually have to have multiple of these $20,000 cells or whatever they are. So that's why it just it's the question here is it's just like number one, like, how did you guys design it like this? And it doesn't say in the manual, like you need like this part needs to go with this part, you know, like these two part numbers need to work together.

SPEAKER_05 39:32

Right.

SPEAKER_06 39:32

Like you can't have multiple people in the company saying, Oh, just use these, or everybody just because just because nobody knows anybody. You know, so it took a while to figure it out. I'm happy that we figured it out, but I'm not super stoked on the the results, you know, and like I don't know how we're gonna work out this the cells and you know, paying for them and and all that stuff. But like I said, this was like a a really expensive mistake on everybody's part, in a sense that like now we have to go back and buy new salt cells, and then it's like what do I do with these other salt cells? Yeah, the ones that I already the ones that I already bought. Like they're they're they've been used. I can't return them. So I haven't even I have not told my client about this yet because like I just found this out yesterday. And of course, like I love to, I go tell all the listeners first before, but I'm gonna have to go back to these clients and be like, hey, you know, this is what's uh this is what's going on here. What do you what do you what do we want to do?

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Man, it's funny. You talk about commercial salt cells and things. I can remember 20, 25 years ago, the the idea of putting or making a commercial pool or spa a salt system was unthinkable. No, it's never gonna happen. They're never gonna make them big enough to to work right. So they stayed on residential pools and and they really start and I'm no, I'm going back a little. Sorry guys, I'm OG. Salt systems really started picking up speed on the residential side in the 90s, particularly in Florida. And again, nobody really talked about I I can remember in so many seminars that I gave, people would ask me, you know, when is when are commercial systems, when are public systems gonna have salt systems? And I told them, well, basically when you can make them affordable. And said right now, and and not only affordable, but not have to have, you know, 10 or 20 of them in a row in order to satisfy the number of gallons. So it it's it's funny that, you know, not funny aha, but funny weird in a way, that that you would talk about, you know, commercial, you know, salt systems the way you are right now. It's like kind of boggles my mind a little bit, but glad to see it's happening. Let's put it like that. Maybe they should put one on the tidal base of a reflecting pool.

SPEAKER_06 41:35

I mean, you would have to put in a bunch of salt in there. I mean, I also like the you know, they come they have a couple brine systems out there that that work similarly, but there's no there's no salt in the water, and everything happens in the in in you know, in the tanks themselves or whatever it is, but I just don't know with like in Australia and New Zealand, like everybody, every single pool has a residential tiny salt cell that's like semi-affordable. Where here, like it's just not I'm not saying it's not affordable, it's just once you get into these commercial ones, like now that's that's a lot of money. And like if this thing fails, you know, and it's like right out of warranty, like I'm gonna be pissed because now it's not you're not just spending like a thousand dollars or two thousand dollars or even four or five thousand dollars. Like, Wayne, this is getting into really, really expensive. And like I I wanna know actually like more about the the warranty period for it and stuff, because I I don't like stuff breaks at this place, this client, all the time. I told you I have to basically redo their whole their whole manifold for they have like a commercial push-pull valve, which is also a pent air product. And instead of you know, we used to have multi-ports on there, and we were literally like popping the bolts off and stuff, like the gasket would like like would get shoved out the side in the filters, like the bulkheads are are breaking. So we have broken, you know, two or three salt cells, you know, where the the union broke. And uh it's just one of those pools where it's a lot of a lot of things go wrong. So we want to use products there that are gonna be have some longevity. Yeah, and it seems like we're trending, seems like we're trending in the wrong direction. And I mean, like I said, I do love Pentair as a company, and I think that they have some great products out there. I just think that that maybe they need to go back to the drawing board with this one and you know, figure, figure out like what what actually works with what and you know how to make how to make things work together.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

How to make it work the right way. Exactly. So gang, I think that that might be it for today. Uh just a couple follow-up things. As you know, the Talking Pools Mentorship Award for the second year is is in the process of determining a winner. Our our good friend Rudy is is doing that right now and taking care of it. So that you should we should see something, I think, with the next couple weeks about this. The other thing is is that um, and I know I've talked about this before, if any of you are currently CPOs and want to become an instructor, there's a class, instructor's class in San Antonio, September 20th to the 22nd. If you are interested in that class or any other future classes, the easiest thing to do is go to phta.org and click on CPO instructors, and then it will take you to a link that will give you a whole ton of information, or you can email me here at talkingpools at gmail dot com and I can give you a little bit of a detail on at least what I know as far as how the class runs and things like that. So that's it for today, guys. Have a great safe week. Steve, take care, bud. Have fun out in uh La La La Lando over there on the West Coast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:31

All right, talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

Bye bye.