Wellness Water, Cold Plunges & The Future of Spa Care with John Harding - Mondays Down Under

This week on the 🇦🇺🇳🇿 edition of the Talking Pools Podcast, Lee, Shane, and Nick welcome longtime industry veteran and chemistry expert John Harding of Lo-Chlor Chemicals for a fascinating deep dive into the rapidly expanding world of wellness products in the pool and spa industry. 

John shares his incredible journey from aircraft engineer in England to becoming Technical Director at Lo-Chlor, one of Australia’s longest-standing specialty pool chemical manufacturers. Listeners get the backstory behind how Lo-Chlor was founded in 1979 after a hospital hydrotherapy pool kept turning green—and how a pharmacist’s chemistry experiments ultimately helped create one of the industry's most recognizable specialty chemical brands. 

The conversation then shifts into one of the hottest trends in the industry right now: wellness spaces featuring hot tubs, saunas, cold plunges, and recovery systems. The team discusses how modern homeowners are increasingly transforming their backyards into personal wellness retreats rather than simply installing swimming pools. 

John introduces Lo-Chlor’s new wellness-focused product lineup, including:

•  Sauna cleaning and wood protection products 
•  Waterline and surface cleaners 
•  Cover care systems 
•  Specialized cleaners for robotic pool cleaners 
•  Mineral enhancement products designed to improve water feel and comfort 

One of the standout discussions centers around robotic pool cleaners and the often-overlooked issue of oils and body fats clogging robotic filter cartridges. John explains why simply hosing filters off is not enough and why degreasing and proper maintenance dramatically improves robotic cleaner performance and longevity. 

The episode also explores mineral water enhancement systems like Therapy 3 and the Iluka spa range, discussing how magnesium and potassium blends can improve water feel without significantly impacting hardness readings or chlorine systems. 

Perhaps the most thought-provoking segment comes near the end of the episode, when the hosts tackle the emerging challenges surrounding cold plunge pools and float tanks. With very little regulation currently in place, the discussion dives into:

•  Water testing challenges at extremely low temperatures 
•  Difficulties with microbiological testing due to high TDS 
•  Lack of existing standards for cold plunge sanitation 
•  Potential public health concerns as the market rapidly expands 

Lee and John discuss how the industry may be evolving faster than regulations can keep up, especially as wellness products become more mainstream across Australia, New Zealand, and internationally. The episode closes with an important reminder that education, chemistry knowledge, and adapting to new technologies remain critical as the pool and spa industry continues evolving. 

If you're a pool professional looking to stay ahead of emerging trends in spas, saunas, cold plunges, mineral systems, and wellness water care, this is an episode you do not want to miss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Good afternoon, good evening, good morning, good whatever time of the day it is. You are listening to Mondays Down Under on the Talking Pools podcast. It's great to have you with us. Of course, today, me, Lee, hey, I'm joined by my esteemed colleagues, Nick in Brisbane. Hey Nick, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Yeah, good thanks, Lee. Had a busy day today. Very, very exciting out on the road. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Exciting day on the road. Always sounds interesting. And Shane, of course, across the ditch in good old Auckland, New Zealand. Hey Shane, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Good, thank you. Living the dream as always, and I hope you are as well.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Have had a very busy day today. Lots of coaching calls today. It's been great. But we're joined by a extra person today, a very an industry stalwart, let's say, a guru in chemistry, and certainly a longtime business friend of mine, John Harding. Hey John, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Good, thank you. And hello everyone. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

So, John, please tell our listeners, for those who don't know you, and I'm sure lots of them do, but for those who don't, tell us a bit about you and w what what you do and where you're from.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Well, you can probably tell, and if not straight away, you will as I keep talking. I've got a bit of a pommy accent, so that's where I originated. Long story short, met my wife over in England and decided to emigrate here, which would be 36 years ago now. January 91 is when I set foot in Australia. What was that?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Patrol ship.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

No, I wasn't one of the convicts. Yeah. They uh married into the uh pool industry. I'm an aircraft engineer by trade and I was in the Air Force in England. And uh my wife's parents owned a company called TruePools here in Sydney, and that's how I got into the industry all those years ago.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Wow, so 36 years.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yeah, 36 years. I think I like it. And we think we'll keep you. So tell us what you do now.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

So now I'm with Lowclaw. We're a specialty chemical company, which I'm sure you'll all know. And I've been with Lowclaw now, in fact, on the 12th, which is next week. I've been with Lowclaw 17 years. So I went from running pool shops and pool businesses out on the road, went to the dark side and become a supplier.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

And there's nothing better when you're a retailer or a service tech when you get a the supplier's rep that has actually been on the other side of the counter and really understands what you're dealing with as a business owner, whatever that whether it's a service business or a retailer, it's hugely valuable knowing you've got that experience to to draw on.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

So Yeah, I think you know that's uh absolutely right because I haven't just learnt the chemicals from the textbook or the text sheet. I physically use them myself. So and some of them I helped develop back in the early days because TruePools, we were a low-cloor supply supplier. And uh we were also with PQ, who are obviously no longer, but some of you at Lee will know them.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Yeah, premiums, premium quality pool products in uh uh Pad Padstow, was it Padstow?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

I believe so, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Yeah, Insigny, a chemical company that ended up being bought out by Zodiac and yeah, ceased to exist.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

So, yeah, I'd look after some of New South Wales. We've got another couple of reps here, Stu and Chris. And uh but then I cover a lot of pretty much nationally, Shane. I cover New Zealand as well, uh, for technical support and plus whole water programme for your MS2.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

So your actual title, you you should own that, is National Technical Manager, is it not?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yes. Tiny wordy Paul come up with the title technical director.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Well, there you go. National Tech Technical Director. Sounds even better. You've got to wear that as a badge of pride. So so tell us a bit about Low Claw for um our listeners that it's not a brand that they're I'm sure if they're in Australia and New Zealand they've heard of Low Claw. But for those who don't know the background about Lowclaw, tell us a bit about Lowclaw.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

So Loclaw was founded by Andrew Simons back in 1979. Andrew, unfortunately, is no longer with us. He passed with cancer, but his son Paul Simons is running it now. And Lowclaw started back then from just manufacturing one product. And uh Andrew was a pharmacist and uh he was at the local hospital and their hydrotherapy pool kept going green. So did some research and thought, well, copper-based algacides work, help prevent copper, help prevent the uh algae from growing. So he made up a batch, put it in, and it stopped that the pool wasn't going green. The next you know is somebody's put a lot of alkaline into the water, and guess what happened? It went black. So Andrew went back to the drawing board again and then worked out well, if he bonds it, it's not gonna plate out. And that's how Low Claw started back in 79. And the I think it was called pool conditioner back then, and uh Andrew started selling some to the pool owners through his pharmacy, then decided, well, let's take it to market and take it around the pool shops, and it just grew from there. So what he made back then is made to the same formula now, which is called the Low Claw pool algorithm.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

So that's that's how it all started. We've obviously grown the products, we've probably got over a hundred specialty products now. And one thing about Lowclaw is we're a true Australian company.

unknown 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Owned and manufactured. We yes, we do buy in some finished products from around the world, but the majority of our specialty products are made to our own tried and proven formulas. And they only change when we come up with something new or can better the formulation, the existing formulation we got.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

What year was that 1979 it started?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Wow. So only uh a couple of years away from 60th anniversary, really.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

So is it 60? Or 50? No, 50th. 50th.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

50th. I was gonna say that lean because I was born in 79 and my little 60s.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

I was making you 60 before you're tired, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, so it's 47 years, or just use a calculator.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Yeah, getting towards, and that'll be a massive milestone for us for a family-owned and operated business that I've never heard of a chemist selling pool chemicals before, so that would have been definitely a first. But yeah, what an amazing story, an amazing legacy that Andrew left too. He really did um make a big impact on the Australian chemical in industry and the pool and spar industries. So yeah. And it's lovely that Paul's continuing that space.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

So we brought you on today because we are noticing, and I think in the US they're noticing as well, like hot tubs have been around for a while, let's face it. But we've had a real surge probably in the hot tubs or spa market, and even more so probably in saunas. And now you add to that the cold plungers. We're getting away from pools and more into like a wellness resort or spa in your own yard. And maybe your yard's not big enough for a pool, but you can have all of this wellness equipment. And there seems to be quite a search on it. And Lowclaw have brought out a range of products that really cater to that surge.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yes, we have. Uh it Jeff Helbin is one of the work colleagues, and it's his baby, he came up with it talking to one of our customers. And what started off looking at uh one product, which would be for the saunas, went into a range of what seven products now. Because we can see there's an opening market and an existing market there with uh with the existing hot tub spas, whatever you want to call them, jacuzzi's. But uh I don't know if you've been to any of the spaser shows. They call it a pool and spa show. It's more spas than anything. And with the spas, I'm the last one here in Sydney. I've never seen so many saunas and ice bars. So it it's obviously a growing market.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

That's funny you should say that actually, John, because we've recently had the pool and spa expo in New Zealand, and I'd say 75% were spa pool, sauna, coal plunges, just taking up so much room, and yeah, they've become such a popular thing over here as well. And they look awesome. I mean, some of the uh some of the manufacturers are really putting a lot of effort into the design on these as well, almost like with the cedar, cedar wood on the outside, so everything looks all uniform with the iceberg with the sauna with a hot tub. So uh yeah, I'd I really like it in a very eye-catch-in as well.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

So, John, tell us what products are in this range that pool shops might not currently be stocking and can obviously offer a new range to their to their clients.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

I guess the the new one would be for the saunas. Traditionally, the standalone pool shop doesn't get involved with saunas. There's a few of the dedicated spa shops now have have them in there, but your normal one-of-the-mill pool shop has hasn't had anything to do with saunas. And I guess one of the questions or when I'm promoting it when I'm going around is the shop will say, but we haven't got any sauna customers. My response to that is how do you know? Because you've never had anything before to sell to them. And I'm actually using the example of the the spa shows now, where they've got so many in there. So I guarantee there's lots of customers who have got saunas. So the two products, uh sauna shine and sauna shield, too many S's there. You that is targeting the sauna market. One is to sanitize the wood inside, and then we got the other product uh shield, which is for an an oil base, which is to protect the wood. Because some of these saunas are a lot of money. So they need to be protected.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

And can you use that sauna shield on the timber on the outside of the spas as well?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yes. It's predominantly made for the insider.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Oh, okay. Sorry, I was thinking outside weathering. So okay, so it's an inside. Yes, you can. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the other products, actually, I should ask, is there any products in the range that are for the ice spas?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Um not as such. Yes, there is. Because really an ice bath, what is it? It's a cold spa. So you've got covers, you've got the same surfaces inside. So yeah, the cover care is for uh protecting the cover and giving it longevity against the sun. The shimmer and seal is for protecting the um acrylic fibre dust, whatever's inside the spa. So when you drain it, you can clean it. And then we've got a waterline cleaner, which is waterline wonder.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Right. Okay. Do they differ at all from the current range of products that you offer um because I think there's a couple of cleaners and things like that in the is it the Luca range? And the Acrospar. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

What we've done with these is slightly change formulas. So they're not identical. Um and yeah, we we slightly tweaked them.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

So they are definitely fair enough. The Iluka range. Sorry. Shane, were you gonna ask something?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

No, no, sorry, I was just gonna uh jump in the gun here, but one of the other products on the Finishing Touch Range John is your robot rinse as well. Yeah so that was a product that one of the suppliers showed me a couple of weeks ago and actually gave me this uh this brochure because they've recently come to New Zealand mode. Could you talk a little bit about the robot rinse?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, and you guys being on on the ground, you'd be able to uh correct me on this, but I would say probably 80, if not 90% of your pool cleaners are now robots being sold. So it's a massive market out there. And one of the things we were seeing, and you guys would see as well, is the baskets, the tummy that it collects all the all the rubbish in. Now I know that some of the cleaners will shut down on low flow, so when when they get full, the cleaner stops wo moving around. What we were seeing, some of them, even though they were clean, will also stop moving because some of the baskets have like a mesh, others have what I call a cartridge plate in there, so it's like a mini cartridge filter. And whilst you can hose them off, it doesn't necessarily get rid of ores and greases. So what we've come up with is a um a cleaner that will clean up the mesh or the cartridge, get rid of alls and greases that stick to them, rejuvenate it for the cleaner to then go off and do its job. You can also use it on the outside for cleaning up the outside of the bodywork of the cleaner.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Yeah, it's a good idea. The cleaning of filters with the body fats and greases, and people say, Oh, I can just hose them out. But I always liken it to like if you're working on an engine or you're cooking with grease and you get butter or grease on your hands, you can't just rinse it off under a tap. It doesn't work, it doesn't come off. You actually need to put on soap or a detergent to break through that grease barrier to to get your hands back to clean. And your filter is no different. So using a filter or a a cleaner and a greaser like this product on the cartridge elements in your cleaner makes perfect sense, just as it does with your actual pool filter, whether that's cartridge or sand as well. So yeah, make it work better for longer, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, and these robots are a investment as well. So having that clean the cartridges and clean the outside of it. You do it with your car. You've got your car washed. Yep, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

And Nick, you were asking about the Luca product range.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Yes, we've used uh we have used them in the past, but it's not something that we're currently stocking. Any more information um about that range, why we should have it, why we should get it back on the shelves.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, so I Luca is one one or two of our systems. We've got two spa systems. One is a Luca, the other's the Aquaspa. Aquaspa is a true chlorine-free system, and Luca is our mineral-based system. It uses chlorine as the sanitizer, but it also has a liquid uh mineral, which is really the heart of the system. It gives you very soft water. So yeah, I Luca, that's uh Luca, I'm pretty sure I'm right here, is Aboriginal for near the water or near the sea. And that's how we come up with the name.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

So with a comparable pool with the mineral beta therapy 3? Yes. Yes, that's our liquid mineral for the swimming pools. Seems very popular, that.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yes, it it's definitely growing. It's a very simple, easy process. Probably uh about 15% of your pools would be a true mineral pool. And correct me if I'm wrong here, guys. So that means you've got 85% other systems, i.e. liquid chlorine, tablet fed, granular fed, salt pools, you can put therapy 3 into to give you the mineral feel and the benefits of the magnesium and potassium.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

So it's it's just a liquid form?

SPEAKER_01 17:28

The liquid form, it's a hundred percent natural. The way it's actually uh we buy it in as a finished product, but the way it is harvested is when the salt lakes evaporate away before they get down to salt, the water hits a certain specific gravity or density, they can then draw this off. So I don't know if you have picked up a five-liter of therapy III, but it is very heavy. It's like a syrup. Yeah. And um that's probably the purest form of magnesium and potassium you can get. It's got other water softeners in there from the ocean called borons, but yeah, that's that's what it is, five litres.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

I'd actually experienced that in liquid form uh uh in skincare. So magnesium or mineral-based skincare for women is is quite popular. And years ago there was one bought out, I'm trying to think of the name of it, but uh you could actually they had little droppers and they had like natural water, and you could put that on and feel the difference, and then you would put the dropper of the uh mineral water, and it was exactly what you're saying. It was like lovely and silky, you could feel the difference. So it allowed you to feel the difference, and that's what it was. It was that last bit of water before complete evaporation and lovely silky feeling. Really. Yeah, so I can I totally related when you saw it said that, and then yet it was something I'd never thought of. It was a popular product. I'd never sold it in the Therapy 3 containers, but it was something that I sold quite a bit of in the uh Lucas spa range, and it was very popular because you only put in do you put in a litre when you fill the spa? What's the quantity?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

You got me now. 50 ml per thousand litres. Well, there you go. So significantly less than. But it's not something you can overdose with.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So uh you know, you could put four or five times the amount in and it's not gonna have any detrimental effect on the pool water. And the other thing what it does or doesn't do is as I'm sure you're aware, with the uh with the other mineral blends going in the pool, you upset the total hardness readings. So you've got to work out then what your true calcium is in the water. 3 won't affect your readings.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

Okay. So the chloride that's in it doesn't affect the hardness readings?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

No. Tiny, tiny amount, but you you won't notice it.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Yeah. So it's just extremely i in a very concentrated version.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah. Of course. You know, I encourage people to pick up the container because quite often I get, well, how can that treat a pull?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

It is a thought that I had, absolutely. It's a small container and a like what is it, a five-litre container, and we say that dose is a 50,000 litre pool?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

50,000 every three months. Yeah. And so and I guess the only way I can explain that, you only put a liter of flock in a pool and it flocks it. So we're putting five litres of this, so uh the feedback we get from people is you know they love it. Yeah, changes the feel of the water. Now it will not produce chlorine. So if you do put it into a salt pool, it's not a replacement. As you know, with the minerals, you put them in and they will convert to chlorine. Therapy three doesn't convert to chlorine, it is purely a water enhancement.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

We have a uh few clients as well, John, on this therapy three. And the feedback from them is that they love it. And I think as well, you should also mention, you know, the price point compared to the other minerals which are on the market. So I think maybe off the top of my head, if you were to buy a 10 or a 15 kilo bag of magnesium, you could be looking at about $60, $70 compared to your product, which is over here, which is much cheaper, and it tends to last a lot longer. And again, it doesn't affect your overall read-ins, as you said.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

And you're putting one bottle in as opposed to how many bags of the minerals to get the same effect.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:53

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

So five litres treats of fifty thousand every every three months.

unknown 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Yeah, the customers that I had that were using the spa definitely noticed the difference. They came back wanting that product because they really did feel the the difference that it made to their spa.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

So in the Iluca range we got it as Bliss. And in the Aqua Spa, it's Invigorate.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Right. So Nick, it looks like high list.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yes, I've got a few things I'm gonna have to speak to me about now.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Is that a three-month dose as well in the spa pool?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

No, sorry, that's that's weekly. Bigger turmoil water in spas, so that's uh that's a weekly dose.

unknown 22:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

But it's only it's only 50 mils a week.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

So Yeah. And like I said, it's not something you can overdose.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

So one litre bottle goes a very long way, which is which is great. Because yeah, from my understanding, uh I did my CPO course last week again, just keeping on top uh on top of that. It's been two years since I did it last time, and I yeah, decided that I'd do a refresher just for the fun of it, because I like getting up at midnight and going to bed at 8 a.m. But Rudy was actually talking to the class about it. And thank you, Rudy. It is a great class, and you are a great teacher. So, listeners out there, if you are thinking of doing your CPO course, make sure you jump on Rudy's website to register for his next one. But mineral pools aren't very popular in the US. So uh this is certainly something that if they want to look at leading the way in their market, offering their customers something different that particularly other people aren't offering, other pool shops, other service techs aren't offering. This is definitely a product that they should look at adding to their to their kit. So and how many countries around the world is local distributing in?

SPEAKER_03 23:53

I believe around about twenty-five.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Right. Great. So every every listener should be able to get their hands on some local ore products.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

And if not, let us know and we'll get it there.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Now, something interesting that I know you and I have talked about before, John, and does tie into this subject, is the cold plunge pools. And I think you and I have both been asked the questions from people, how do we look after them? How do we keep them safe? Because they're not hot bodies of water, they're very cold bodies of water. And I know you and like I said, you and I have had conversations about it, but tell the listeners what dealings you've had with cold plunge and and what we need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, I guess it's like I said, I think I said at the beginning, or when we were talking earlier, is they don't seem to be regulated. They don't necessarily fall under the spa regulations or Australian standards as such. And testing of that body of water, which is super cold, usually they're down around ten degrees or less, uh it brings a whole new dynamic into water testing. And talking with Lamotte, who do the spin and here and there, you he's recommended you actually warm up the water before you do a test because you won't get accurate readings. And going a little bit off subject here is there's a lot of float tanks around now. Not necessarily i private ones in people's homes, but ones that gyms and that sort of thing are happening. And for those that don't know, a float tank is a very high level of minerals in in the water, whether it be salt or magnesium, to a point where you don't sink. So that's why it's called a float tank. You're floating it. And again, it's very hard to test that water because of the excessive TDS total of dissolved solids. And I know there was one company that sent away a water sample for microbiological testing, which you need to do when you're in commercial environments, and the lab come back unable to test due to excessive TDS. So I guess that opens up a whole new discussion and possibly a bit of a minefield. How do we look after those bodies of water? Yes. Again, there's no regulations as such. None I'm aware of, and I know Lee, you and I have spoken, and we couldn't come up with any.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

I scoured the the public health guidelines, but as Spiro said the other week on a on the podcast, the 3633 is being rewritten at the moment. Uh so I'll be very interested to see if plunge pools or the float tanks are actually mentioned in there because he did say that while 3633 has always predominantly been a private water act or private water quality guidelines, it will be covering some of the commercial space as well. Obviously that would be a national standard and each state will have their own individual state health guidelines. But from that Australian standard, it probably will make sure that the states review their guidelines and and bring them into line accordingly. So it'll be interesting to see if they actually are mentioned, and if so, what they actually mentioned, because how do we test it? How like TDS is high, so therefore no microbiological testing. Water temperature affects the test. It's easy to leave the the test out, uh let it go to room temperature, maybe stick it in a sit the bottle in a a jug of warm water to make it warm up a little bit faster. You can we can do those sort of things. But I understand, John, from a conversation we had a while ago, that you did actually have a client that had a cold plunge and they sent it away for microbiological testing.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Yes, that was we did that because when coal plunges were starting to become a lot more popular, we had one running on Aquaspa, which is our chlorine-free system. And part of the process was we our Repo Vin WA, Jason, actually sent it away for biological testing, and it it had a very high phaser load, and it came back with uh absolute clean bit of health. So we were pretty impressed with the aqua spa holding up under those situations.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yes. Yeah. So obviously, cold temperatures, as we know, bac bacteria and pathogens love to grow in in hot water, warm water. So obviously colder water will inhibit the the growth and couple that with the aquaspar range, and it seems to have worked very well from a health perspective. So or from the microbiological perspective. So it's good to see. But yeah, it's it's one of those very grey areas. The industry has moved faster than regulations and government. Not unusual. So at least hopefully with this review of 3633, that um we might see some further information because we all want to do the right things. We all want to give our customers the right information. But what that is we don't know at the moment. It's a very such a great area. I think that draws us to a close for today's topic. Thank you so much, John, for joining us. We've really enjoyed having this conversation, enlightening us with your product range that's out. And now Nick's got a new shopping list. And uh yeah, hopefully our listeners out there have gained some insight into maybe even into plunge pools, products for saunas that they weren't aware of, and even for robotic pool cleaners. So definitely some great new products out there that cater to a part of the market that maybe you haven't been catering to before. So thank you very much. Thank you, Shane. Thank you, Nick. And listeners out there, if you have any questions, remember drop us a line at talkingpools at gmail.com and Rudy will send that on to the most applicable host. Thank you very much for joining us. We look forward to having you join us again next week on Mondays down under on the Talking Pools podcast. Have a great week.