Natural Pools: Myth vs Reality, PART lll

this conversation is between Rudy, Allen Schnaak, Andrea (The Pool Girl), and Frank Disher (The Deep End Podcast) , discussing various topics related to natural swimming pools, chemical treatments, biofilms, and pool maintenance. Here's a summary of the key points discussed:

1. Natural Pool Design vs. Chemical Pools:
   • Allen Schnaak discusses the design and benefits of natural pools, highlighting their self-supporting and less chemically intensive nature compared to traditional chemical pools.
2. Biofilm and Filtration:
   • The conversation delves into the importance of biofilm in natural pools, which aids in filtration and nutrient sequestration.
   • They discuss the sizes of particulates caught by filters, with Allen mentioning gravel filtration with a large surface area for biofilm development.
3. Concerns About Pathogens:
   • Rudy brings up concerns about pathogens like cryptosporidium and asks about their removal and monitoring in natural pools.
   • Allen explains that while one cryptosporidium may not be harmful, the concern arises with excessive quantities, emphasizing the need for monitoring and filtration.
4. Control of Biofilms:
   • Rudy expresses concerns about different types of biofilms, some of which can secrete toxins. He asks about controlling the type of biofilm in the pool.
   • Allen explains that the design, flow rate, and nutrient levels are managed to encourage beneficial biofilms and discourage harmful ones.
5. Maintenance and Cleaning:
   • Andrea asks about maintenance practices for natural pools, to which Allen emphasizes the importance of regular cleaning and brushing.
   • They also discuss the presence of different types of biofilms and how they can be managed through

AquaStar Pool Products
The Global Leader in Safety, Dependability, & Innovation in Pool Technology.

POOL MAGAZINE
Pool Magazine is leading up to the minute news source for Swimming Pool News and Pool Features. Ou

BLUERAY XL
The real mineral purifier! Reduce your pool maintenance costs & efforts by 50%

Online Pool Classes
The difference between you and your competition is what you know!

Leslie's Pro
Whether your pool care business is residential or commercial, the Leslie’s Pro team is here as your

Jack's Magic
If you know Jack's you'd have no stains!

Raypak
Raypak, leading the evolution of environmental efficiency and sustainability in pool heaters.

SKIMMER
Skimmer is a platform with route optimization, proof of service, invoicing, customer communication.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Rudy (01:05:13.406)
Load me up and I will. And like I said, if there's one that's nearby that I can go over and check a few times, if it's wonderful, I will sing, I will sing it's

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:05:17.813)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Allen Schnaak (01:05:22.804)
Yeah, well, every year there's more in the ground. So maybe geographically, there may be a closer one to you next year.

Rudy (01:05:29.49)
I will sing its praises if it deserves it. I am, if nothing, if I'm not fair, I don't have a biased opinion. I don't sell chemicals. I know once or twice you said to me that it won't affect chemical sales. I don't care. I don't sell chemicals. I do this. Not necessarily. I sell a lot of remedies that don't use chemicals. Have you read my book?

Allen Schnaak (01:05:47.104)
They only sell remedies using chemicals. Yeah. Well.

Allen Schnaak (01:05:57.365)
Which one?

Rudy (01:05:58.882)
how to get rid of swimming pool algae.

Allen Schnaak (01:06:01.393)
I haven't read that one.

Rudy (01:06:03.01)
There's a million, not a million, I almost downsized it. I've got a good half a dozen things that you can do to a swimming pool to set it up, to make it less conducive to growth so you don't have to add the chemicals to battle it.

Allen Schnaak (01:06:15.024)
Yeah, I've got a real simple application that only requires biological filtration and you eliminate the need for chemicals entirely and it controls out.

Rudy (01:06:17.934)
could've treated, which...

Rudy (01:06:26.838)
And I've not seen any studies on.

Allen Schnaak (01:06:29.556)
You know, you're close to Tampa Bay. How's that Pine Island phosphate spill going?

Allen Schnaak (01:06:40.716)
Pine Island, the phosphate mine, the dam, the reclamation dam, the 20 million gallons of water that was discharged into Tampa Bay, exacerbating the algae kill along the coast. This has only been nine months ago, six months ago. The point is that the environment's stable until there's an excessive input.

Rudy (01:07:00.542)
Right, with the red tide and all the other.

Allen Schnaak (01:07:07.676)
And that excessive input came from that and caused it to happen. So there is a cause and effect for biological problems. Generally it's characterized by too many nutrients, not enough consumers. Creates a eutrophic environment where anything can thrive. We want to create a nutrient deprived environment by optimizing the biology to consume the nutrients that enter the water. It's not difficult to do.

Rudy (01:07:15.596)
Mm-hmm.

Allen Schnaak (01:07:36.476)
It's an isolated closed system.

Rudy (01:07:36.814)
I have a couple of other questions. so Going off the topic or to the next Session because there are a couple of other questions. I have a one when you do Fill the pool top off the water. I assume we're declorinating it

Allen Schnaak (01:07:56.252)
Yeah, well, the reality is because chlorine is so unstable anyway, in 35 minutes, you're losing half its concentration. So dechlorinating the water is the least of our problems. The more pending issue is the concentration of phosphorus in the water. Phosphate is the one element that we can limit, that when limited, it eliminates the majority of the issues for algae blooms. So

Rudy (01:08:08.63)
so it's not necessary.

Rudy (01:08:26.165)
I agree.

Allen Schnaak (01:08:26.736)
I mean, the pool industry has been chasing its tail around phosphates for a long time. And there's a lot of great mechanical filtration enhancers that can be used to remove phosphate. So in the presence of phosphates, if it's in the source water and there's no other way to get it, then we may opt to truck water in with a less phosphorus in the content. But to top off the pool, yeah, no big deal. It's such a minor amount considering the mass.

we add water through the biological filter and any chlorine that may be in it is instantly inert by its.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:09:05.496)
Do you need to use, I'm sorry, do you need to use phosphate removers or how, like you just used, plug it in.

Allen Schnaak (01:09:09.963)
We could, yeah. I mean, any of the lanthanum alum phosphate filtering products can be used. And with those cases, it's used in conjunction with the standard pool filter system circulating that way. Well, I mean, if you flock it, yeah, but generally, most of the applications that are done in our industry are application and filter cycled out.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:09:26.189)
And then is it vacuumed out normally, like to waste?

Allen Schnaak (01:09:38.944)
flocked and vacuumed. Yeah, I mean.

Rudy (01:09:41.314)
So then it is okay to treat. So initially we do treat the water chemically to get chemicals out.

Allen Schnaak (01:09:48.796)
Yeah, we want a minimal amount of phosphorus.

Rudy (01:09:51.946)
And again, those chemicals, phosphorus, for those of you that have been listening, we understand that municipalities do establish high levels of phosphorus. Also, silicates in your drinking water, which neither one of them are really great for swimming pools, silicates promoting diatom growth for RN. That's something that silicates actually need, the only thing on the planet that can consume them, but they add these mostly following the issues in Flint, Michigan.

to coat the insides of lead plumbing. And it's very sad, and unfortunately there's a lot of lead plumbing underground and there's a lot of people that got sick from it, so they add phosphates and phosphates like to coat things. We know that folks with salt cells know that for sure. Silicone's the same thing, and they do that to provide lower lead levels at your home.

Allen Schnaak (01:10:46.805)
All that is true.

Rudy (01:10:47.218)
So those are a battle for both of us.

So interesting.

Allen Schnaak (01:10:51.744)
So it's not so much an issue of chemistry balance as it is making sure that the system can get a good start to begin with. Because once a system is underway for a season or two, it creates its own little personality of microbial life, begins to reach its maximum capacity, and it weathers in usually, well, in the planted regeneration zone.

sometimes takes a year, maybe two years, for that biological filter, that pond environment, to really get settled in, to grow the necessary amount of microbes. The biofilm actually is growing even in the regeneration zones. It's what grows around the roots and rhizomes of the plants that grow into the substrate. And so the roots, you know, I minimized the plants earlier saying they're not necessary, but in the...

in the areas where they are used, they form tunnels in the substrate to allow water passage. They nurture and develop the biofilm around that gravel and substrate and enhances the microbes' ability to convert food source for the plant. So they're all in this together. The fast flow filters, the biofilm filters, we've got a couple of installations where you'd never even know it was a natural pool. The biofilm filter is stuck up underneath the deck.

and not seen, and it just looks like a regular swimming pool. And that's the other thing people need to recognize, that how a pool looks has nothing to do with it being natural. It's natural purely because there's a biological filter employed to filter the water.

Rudy (01:12:37.334)
Now, when one of these homes goes up for sale, are they permitted to list a natural pool as a swimming pool? Just curious. Okay. They are permitted as a swimming pool?

Allen Schnaak (01:12:48.128)
Sure, men are permitted as a swimming pool.

Allen Schnaak (01:12:53.908)
Yeah, let me make that clear because I thought that was understood. Yeah, these are proper swimming vessels engineered and permitted as a swimming pool. We're not talking about a scooped out pond here. No, there are ornamental ponds out there. It's a whole different genre. We're talking about natural swimming pools and ponds.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:13:14.381)
They're like structured and waterproofed and stuff like that.

Allen Schnaak (01:13:17.936)
Exactly. They look just like swimming pool with a biological filter.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:13:21.433)
is what I read on the website.

Rudy (01:13:26.19)
So there's actually.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:13:26.305)
Frank wants to know what is the acceptable swimmer load, sorry, Rudy, and what amount of swimmer waste is acceptable.

Rudy (01:13:30.338)
That's okay.

Rudy (01:13:34.786)
Frank, by the way, before you jump into that, Frank, by the way, actually heads the Deep End podcast. So I do wanna go ahead and give him a nod. So he's a podcast host from a wonderful podcast that hits an entirely different audience than we do. So Frank is definitely, if you wanted someone else to possibly chat with going forward, Frank would definitely be a great guy who I would highly recommend. Probably.

Allen Schnaak (01:13:35.049)
Well, I mean, there's.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:13:41.225)
Oh, I forgot to mention that. I'm sorry about that.

Rudy (01:14:04.703)
less a little different in its delivery than I am.

Allen Schnaak (01:14:10.336)
Thanks for your questions, Frank.

Rudy (01:14:14.594)
Please continue, Alan. Sorry.

Allen Schnaak (01:14:17.62)
So what was the question, specific question I need to answer for Frank?

Rudy (01:14:20.723)
Andrea.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:14:20.833)
His Frank's question was what was the acceptable swimmer load on and what is sorry, what amount of swimmer waste is acceptable?

Allen Schnaak (01:14:26.845)
Oh, OK.

Well, there is a predicted amount of summer waste that we know a body is going to bring in with them on their body. That is, that's how the biological filter size was initially.

was initially engineered. That 22,000 square foot pool in Weber Park has a bathaloid capacity of 500. So that's, I don't know, what do the math, 400 square foot per batho?

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:15:01.471)
I suck at math.

Allen Schnaak (01:15:02.604)
Yeah, it's yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's considerable. But when you look at the, that particular pool actually has three different areas. There's a lap swimming lane with 25 meter five lanes, there's 25 meter lap swimming that people sign out and register for register their times. There's a diving well with diving in goes down to four meters deep. If you go out on Google

Allen Schnaak (01:15:31.604)
you'll see it winterized right now and clear all the way to the bottom. Of course, most pools can be clear this time of year. There's also in that design, there's a kiddie area. And to the question, there was a point earlier about E. coli and generally E. coli is a child issue, a child control issue. Let's just put it that way.

So we isolate it.

Rudy (01:16:01.771)
I also agree. I also agree that there are no fecal accidents.

Allen Schnaak (01:16:08.064)
No, you're right. They're planned. And it's not the floating baby Ruth I'm concerned about. It's the brown cloud that dissipates too quickly. But in that environment, yeah, we want to isolate the kids area, not unlike the way splash pads are designed now, where that water is isolated, treated, and routed and filtered separately than the main body of water.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:16:08.665)
Hehe

Hehehehe

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:16:17.175)
Oh no.

Allen Schnaak (01:16:36.108)
from most of the other swimming. So we know that environment is exceptionally prone to accidents. So the systems are designed accordingly. But Frank Batherlode, in this case, 500 people and 22,000 square feet. I don't know, you do the math, but one bather per 400 square feet.

Rudy (01:17:00.427)
I do want to jump back just a little bit. We were talking about the use of nitrites for plants and that information, if anybody is interested, under studies conducted by Diana Woltz, that in her book, The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, referring specifically to aquatic plants and algaes. It was there that research came from. So.

Rudy (01:17:29.151)
Where are we now? Is there any particular area of the country, any state specifically, where you see this growing more quickly than others?

Allen Schnaak (01:17:38.856)
Yeah, well, like everything in Texas, people move in there. I mean, there's a lot of activity in Texas. Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, major hotspots. The Northeast Corridor, major hotspot. And that's where our crew does most our installations. In northern New Jersey, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia.

Allen Schnaak (01:18:08.808)
And that's where our house crew is typically focused. We've got projects going in Baja, in Vancouver, in Montana, in Tulum, Puerto Rico, and a lot in the states. Arkansas, Missouri, two in Tennessee, a couple in North Carolina.

And it's encouraging. I mean, it's keeping me off the street. I mean, I'm designing tools and thank goodness, the pandemic came along. Well, that's not the way I wanted that to come out. Well, the pandemic came along, everybody got more used to video conferencing. So using Zoom is a lot easier now than it was pre-pandemic because it's such a new communication style.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:18:41.049)
Heh.

Rudy (01:18:42.402)
Mmm.

Rudy (01:18:48.494)
Would you say this is more of a...

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:18:51.186)
Hehe

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:18:56.689)
Yeah.

Rudy (01:19:03.15)
True. That's something that if I could have bought stock in anything...

Allen Schnaak (01:19:08.156)
Oh man, yeah, it just makes perfect sense, especially for these type of meetings where we're doing, I don't need to be in somebody's backyard to evaluate and see a topographic survey and discuss shape, size, configuration, how they're going to use it. So laying out a plan, building a pool, all the same restraints on natural pool construction as there are for chemical pool construction.

It's all about available resources. Well, when can you build it? Well, it's too late to build a pool for 2024, so you better be looking at 2025.

Rudy (01:19:40.61)
Would you um...

Rudy (01:19:48.122)
Would you say that as far as the interest in these areas, was that more of a push or a pull development, meaning that the interest was there so the builder showed up, or the specific builders have brought this to an area?

Allen Schnaak (01:20:06.908)
Well, I did two seminars in Atlantic City last week, and four of the builders that attended already had clients that had been in their store and were asking about natural pools. So they were there to learn about natural pools, which is a great, better than where we were five years ago. Because I mean, I believe awareness precedes all change. Businesses and inventors don't invent a market. The marketplace.

requires the need to be fulfilled. So when the market has a need, businesses fill it. Right now the need is more educated understanding about what a natural pool is by professionals within the pool industry. Because you would have clients there that would open up a whole nother avenue and whole nother menu of clients to your construction portfolio than what you may be getting right now.

Rudy (01:20:58.286)
Frank!

Allen Schnaak (01:21:04.872)
Plus it's a lot more, they're more fun to build. They're interesting, different. They're not your cookie cutter 1630.

Rudy (01:21:11.822)
So with that, I do want to point back to that pool at Weber Park. The pool at Weber Park not considered a public swimming pool. There were exemptions added to the code just specifically for that to exist. Basically, they had made swim ponds illegal. Anything before 2008 was allowed to remain but not following. So they added a special exemption to the code.

Allen Schnaak (01:21:13.628)
Hey Frank!

Frank (01:21:14.849)
Hello.

Rudy (01:21:41.214)
And that's, I'll give you this, the exemption. I'm just pointing out where this information can be found from, because a lot of the questions that folks are going to ask on a public pool is the health environment involvement. So I do want to point out that there are exemptions in subsection five where they did create this naturally, and it reads specifically for this pool, a naturally treated swimming pool.

Allen Schnaak (01:21:42.396)
I mean, there's a great book on it if you want to learn about what that process was.

Rudy (01:22:07.798)
Located in the city of Minneapolis is not a public pool for purposes of this section and is exempt from the requirements for public swimming pools under Minnesota rules chapter 4 7 1 7 and the statute excuse us apologize really quick is Minnesota statute 144 dot 1 2 if anybody is interested in seeing that information there

Allen Schnaak (01:22:33.664)
So it is a public pool.

Rudy (01:22:36.263)
according not according to the people in Minneapolis.

Allen Schnaak (01:22:38.208)
It is a public pool that the public is invited to attend and swim in. They changed state law to get that pool installed.

Rudy (01:22:43.114)
Um.

Rudy (01:22:47.39)
Again, the code is an exception. They're not allowed to call it a public pool. It's also not monitored by the health department. It's not, it's.

Allen Schnaak (01:22:51.828)
All right, semantics, Rudy. It's a public pool where people, lots of people go to go swimming. It's not a backyard residential pool, it's a public pool.

Rudy (01:22:59.81)
So you're playing, then it's not public pool used in the sense that we in the industry use the term. You're playing fast and loose with the term.

Allen Schnaak (01:23:08.739)
It's not a class of pools that our industry recognizes as.

Rudy (01:23:13.966)
Correct, or environmental health and health departments that do have public pool codes. They do also not recognize this as a public pool.

which is important as we're talking about this and calling it a public pool. It is a pool that is open to the public. However, it is not considered a public pool. It is not regulated the same.

Rudy (01:23:39.074)
That doesn't mean anything bad. I'm just stating a fact. I read that specifically from the code. I mean, it's not meant to be an attack or something that you had to defend. I'm just trying to point it out to the folks that are listening. I don't know if I would call it trivial or not. Folks, we don't want folks thinking there's a health department approved public pool out there. That's not the case at all.

Allen Schnaak (01:23:41.948)
No, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, interesting trivia.

Rudy (01:24:01.366)
Frank, did you have another question? You're here.

Rudy (01:24:06.454)
You gotta unmute yourself. There you go. Yes, we can. Frank Disher with the Deep End Podcast stopping in to say hello. We love you, Frank.

Frank (01:24:06.568)
Hold on. Yeah. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

Frank (01:24:14.904)
Thank you, Rudy. Thank you, Andrea and Alan. A couple of questions. One is, if there is, say there is crypto detected or there is a fecal accident or an amoeba or whatever, and this natural pool has to be treated to...

Allen Schnaak (01:24:33.172)
Now natural pool just needs, this is what I call the overflowing bathtub syndrome. You've got a spigot running into a bathtub that's overfilling, the very first thing you do is you turn the spigot off. So once the fecal accident has occurred and the pool has been closed, whether it's a chemical pool or a natural pool, in a natural pool, we just let it run. Well.

I mean, like I said, I mean, it's a brown cloud that's the biggest problem. A baby Ruth bar is not a problem. Usually doesn't indicate illness. A brown cloud does. So you let it run. And right now the timeframe is to let it run for four to five days, monitor the CFU levels after four to five days. And when they get at or below the threshold, then it's...

like in any other pool. Get below the threshold, you can hope.

Frank (01:25:33.556)
Okay.

Rudy (01:25:34.658)
I would like to see the supporting information on that.

Frank (01:25:37.82)
Yeah, yeah, I just don't see the sanitizing aspect of that. But I don't get it. So I mean, and I'm not trying to argue. But in the other thing was, you said this, this public pool in Minneapolis is did the math, it's 400 square feet per swimmer. All right, that's the average pool. Almost, it's just a little smaller than the average pool. So that's like one swimmer per pool, if those numbers translate.

Allen Schnaak (01:25:43.432)
Well, there-

Allen Schnaak (01:26:04.808)
Now that's the bather load for this particular pool.

Frank (01:26:09.568)
All right, but so the bather loads would be different on a backyard natural pool.

Allen Schnaak (01:26:15.388)
Residential pool is usually 100 square foot per expected bather.

Frank (01:26:23.212)
So five to six bathers.

Allen Schnaak (01:26:25.296)
Family of five, 1632.

Frank (01:26:28.996)
Okay. And the reason for the smaller bather load is the sanitizing of or the lack of

I guess the lack of sanitizing capability of the system.

Allen Schnaak (01:26:46.668)
No, the limit is the size of the biological filter. So if I understand that you want to build a thousand square foot pool with 20 people in it on a daily basis, I'd design the filter differently. That's a larger nutrient deposit than typical. Typical is a bathyr per hundred square feet, a bathyr per 10 by 10.

Frank (01:27:09.942)
So-

Frank (01:27:15.964)
All right. So a family that says, Hey, we throw a lot of parties. We have ball teams over kids have 10, 12 kids over in the summer. Uh, they want to build a 600 square foot pool. You're going to build a 900,000 square foot, uh, natural filter.

Allen Schnaak (01:27:34.896)
No, I'll design the filter based on whether it's a biofilm filter, which takes up much less space, or whether it's the regeneration zone, the man-made wetlands, it takes up different space. So yeah, I mean, that's that is the discussion that's had though, understanding who and how many. Is it a doggy daycare? And the occasional party is not.

intense bather load. The occasional party is occasional. It's not 90% of the time.

Frank (01:28:12.468)
Well, well, I mean, except for the fact that say you do have, and I'm again, I'm not trying to argue, uh, you know, you do have 10, 10 of your kids, uh, ball team come over one of the kids craps in the polls. Nobody sees it. Uh, there's nothing there to start killing those pathogens. There's nothing there to wipe out that crypto until it does make it through the filter system.

your natural filter system while it's just floating around in the pool, there's nothing in the body of water to my understanding to actually kill those pathogens.

Allen Schnaak (01:28:49.136)
Well, there's not, Frank, and you're exactly right. There's not a residual sanitizer that's killed all the biology in the water. The biology exists in the filter itself. So routing the water and the circulation, I don't know if I've mentioned this as part of the operational process, this is 24-7 circulation. Water doesn't stop moving. We run it, you know, with the energy efficient

pumps are much more efficient than they used to be. And we can dial the flow rate in based on the need of the system to 70, 80, 100 gallons per minute. And that maintains that way 24 seven. So the water is always moving through the biological flow. And it's always the surface water that we're pulling through the system first.

Rudy (01:29:40.686)
So one of the things that we talked about a little bit earlier, I just wanted to jump back to really quick, is insane natural, meaning no chemistry, and comparing it to natural bodies of water. Again, we spoke about a lake, a river, a stream, all being supplied by groundwater.

at some point in time, there's a spring somewhere, so there's a constant influx of fresh water coming into that. That water's flowing, it's moving past you. So it's really not a good comparison there. This would be more similar to a pond. So not saying anything one way or the other, but would you, Alan, say this design that you have gives a body of water that is safer than a natural pond?

Allen Schnaak (01:30:31.676)
Yes. If for no other reason than the fact that I've got control over the design and the circulation flow and I can manage and monitor it. In a pond I've got no idea. I've got a sealed environment in my pool. It's got a waterproof membrane. It's isolated, closed cell, closed circulation. There's no surface water runoff coming into the pool. I can control that. I can't control that in nature.

Rudy (01:30:59.754)
I can see that. As far as now going back to a diarrhea accident, we let the filter run. That takes care of any crypto that may have been introduced in that incident.

Allen Schnaak (01:31:15.08)
You know, one crypto is not a problem. A billion of them are. So when you get billions, Carl Sagan would say billions and billions of, yeah. So suppression is the key. That's why the E. coli, Pseudomonas and Enterococcus marker and indicator organism limits is not zero. There's something, they're either.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:31:26.615)
I'm sorry.

Allen Schnaak (01:31:44.064)
10, 50, 100. So some level of these opportunistic organisms, these pathogen is okay.

Rudy (01:31:53.435)
How much cryptosporidium is released during your average diarrheal incident?

Allen Schnaak (01:32:00.2)
I don't know, depends on if they're infected with crypto.

Rudy (01:32:03.322)
And if they are, do you think it's possible that in that diarrhea incident that they only ejected one, ejected one crypto? You were saying one crypto wasn't harmful.

Allen Schnaak (01:32:08.529)
That's why I'd shut the pool.

Allen Schnaak (01:32:13.128)
No, my point was one cryptosperidium in the water is not a problem. It's billions and billions of them. That's the problem.

Rudy (01:32:20.539)
I don't see how there would be just one. I think there would be billions that came out of that person in any fecal incident.

Allen Schnaak (01:32:25.896)
Well, I think that my answer to your situation was, what happens with a fecal accident, it was close the pool. Test and monitor, and when the levels drop below indicator organism levels, then you can open the pool again.

Rudy (01:32:33.591)
Where does okay and write it run?

Rudy (01:32:40.598)
So are we testing for crypto? Andrea Hulls, are we testing for crypto?

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:32:41.617)
I was gonna ask that you said I was gonna ask that question sorry

Allen Schnaak (01:32:50.869)
which is.

Rudy (01:32:51.914)
Are we testing for crypto? Then who cares what they're testing for to monitor, if that's what we're concerned with.

Allen Schnaak (01:32:58.356)
Yeah, well, neither does World Health Organization and neither does CDC. They test for E. coli and Teracocca and Pseudomonas.

Rudy (01:33:05.742)
Actually, the CDC does give you a procedure that you're required to follow should there be a fecal incident involving diarrhea.

Allen Schnaak (01:33:13.236)
So for exceptional testing in cases where additional information, yeah, sure, I could see that, but for marker indicator organisms, those are only three.

Rudy (01:33:20.61)
So then would not, I think personally that it would be more open, more conducive to pool professional involvement if we were to see something along, okay, we're gonna let it run, we're gonna test it until there's no risk. Why not test the water for cryptosporidium if that's the concern? Why test for other things if I'm concerned with that?

Allen Schnaak (01:33:50.112)
Yeah, Rudy, and I used to have an answer to that because back in my days with the chemical manufacturer, people were always asking, well, why can't we just test for bacteria? So, well, there's no efficient at home way to do that. You can test ATP and all that does is give you the results of metabolic output in the water. Doesn't tell you what put it there.

Rudy (01:33:50.326)
You're saying it's an indicator?

Rudy (01:34:07.603)
I don't disagree.

Rudy (01:34:13.616)
I'm also not aware of such a test for home use, but that's why I was asking, as you stated that we would. So what are we testing for then to ensure that we have no crypto? You're looking for other indicators that would be accompanying?

Allen Schnaak (01:34:27.048)
Yeah, we're looking at the canary. We're looking at the three canaries, E. coli and terracocca and pseudomonas. If those are present at levels in excess of the thresholds, then yeah, the conditions would be right for the development of other organisms, like a crypto or geardia. And again, those are even outside, they're not even bacteria, but pathogenic organisms.

Rudy (01:34:31.511)
Okay.

Rudy (01:34:54.922)
And Andrea brought up, I think it was Andrea, or maybe it was Frank that brought it up earlier regarding raccoon feces. That is also a huge concern with Baylissascaris procianus. One of the things that we are worried about, what's the process there? The same.

Allen Schnaak (01:35:17.601)
Process for what? Getting rid of raccoons?

Rudy (01:35:20.31)
getting rid of the eggs that come in raccoon feces that lend to the raccoon that birth that give the raccoon roundworm eggs

Allen Schnaak (01:35:28.748)
Well, yeah, those would be, those would be, uh-oh, cysts. And I guess the way to prevent them would be not to allow raccoons in the backyard. Don't let raccoons swim.

Rudy (01:35:40.063)
So we would just then with every natural pool, we need a Rottweiler. It's something that would keep the vacuums out of the yard. We do have a process for handling that. It doesn't involve a chemical treatment. No chemicals. We already know that chlorine won't do it. Either filtration or we dump the water. So.

Allen Schnaak (01:35:54.24)
Filtration.

Allen Schnaak (01:35:59.452)
And we've got a hell of a robust filter system. So that's easily the method for the square footage of surface area I have for a filter media is enormous compared to what's going on in a typical swimming pool. Well, I've got 300,000 square feet of surface area on my biofilm system that goes on a 400 square foot pool. So.

Rudy (01:36:13.43)
what size particulate is removed from the water.

Rudy (01:36:26.062)
Okay.

Allen Schnaak (01:36:27.428)
And that's in that four by 10 volt area that the biofilm system would reside. And it's all the surface area is provided by limestone more often than not. A three H to three quarter inch clean limestone. Yeah. That size, that five, seven size of clean.

Rudy (01:36:45.89)
So I'm asking what size particular will pass through that. No, we're looking at, it's actually, it's fairly large. It's actually 55 by 65 microns is the measurement for the egg.

Rudy (01:37:04.034)
So it is quite large, which is why filtration works in the pool industry. I just don't understand what's working there.

Allen Schnaak (01:37:11.02)
I know it's constant circulation, constantly moving through a filter bed. The filter bed is enhanced with biofilm. Biofilm, the EPS, it's the film on biofilm that encapsulating polymeric substance actually sequesters microorganisms and nutrients. It's...

Rudy (01:37:33.762)
So is this a sand bed in this?

Allen Schnaak (01:37:36.7)
No, it's gravel. Quarter to 3.8, 3 quarter inch gravel.

Rudy (01:37:41.686)
And do we know, do we know what size particles the gravel can catch?

Allen Schnaak (01:37:53.218)
I'm sure I have that record somewhere. I'm not so interested in that as I am providing a surface area for the biofilm development.

Rudy (01:37:57.39)
I am with this specific example, with this specific example, biofoam is not gonna help you. We can't kill it with chlorine either. The shell, the egg is too thick.

Allen Schnaak (01:38:08.4)
Yeah, but you can capture it, sequester it. That's the point. Yeah. Well, it's not the particulate. It's what's coating the particulate. The biofilm itself is a, while it may be slippery if you're walking across it on a rocky creek, it's actually, it's actually tactfully, you know, from a microscopic level, there's adhesion that occurs on the surface.

Rudy (01:38:12.37)
And which is why I'm asking you what size particulate can be caught by the filter system.

Rudy (01:38:27.9)
I understand.

Allen Schnaak (01:38:37.288)
And it actually serves as kind of a pantry of sorts for food to be eaten later, nutrients that are captured, but not necessarily needed.

Rudy (01:38:37.343)
I'm familiar with it.

Rudy (01:38:48.106)
But that doesn't answer the question.

Allen Schnaak (01:38:49.844)
Well, it does in the fact that there is a robust level of filtration.

Rudy (01:38:52.214)
You're saying nothing can pass through it. Well, I understand that robust level of filtration, but I'm concerned about one specific thing at this point. So if you could, we're not gonna get the answer now. You said you have it. If you could send me that information, that would be fantastic. I would like to see that also. Because I am curious. Because there are things that we can only handle through filtration. I just want to see that it's happening there too. Or how it's happening there. Huh? No.

Allen Schnaak (01:39:16.852)
So it's not just chemistry. Oh my.

Rudy (01:39:21.514)
It's not ever just chemistry. It's it's never just chemistry. There's nothing that's just chemistry about a regular swimming pool.

Allen Schnaak (01:39:22.513)
It's not just chemistry.

Allen Schnaak (01:39:29.82)
Now, you're right. There's a lot of moving pieces. And I would say in my experience, in my history in the industry, the most disappointing aspect of pool industry, pool maintenance and operation is the inattention that the clients give to the pool. The fact that it's, you know, maybe one dose of something a week and it's done. And it does require monitoring oversight.

And the wheels fall off when people don't take care of it.

Rudy (01:40:02.302)
I agree. I agree with that. That's part of my concern actually. I don't know Frank, if you share this too. My thought is, okay, here's the homeowner. They don't have a pool service company. They're taking care of their backyard pool themselves. Maybe they bring a sample in, maybe they don't. Maybe they just, it's old school, Alan. It's old school, it's HTH and acid. That's all they need. They're good to go, right? So they toss this in once a week, don't even test. It's still giving...

a slight amount of protection when they toss in that chlorine. The same person with the natural pool, we granted this person is an absolute menace, but they do exist. They don't even have that little bit. Do they?

Allen Schnaak (01:40:46.728)
Yeah, well, there's less to go wrong. And I know you find that strangely ironic, the fact that there's less to go wrong in a natural pool than there is to go wrong in chemical pool. But the fact is, yeah, there's a lot less moving pieces. We don't have to add anything. We don't have to manage it and monitor. We can be responsible stewards in the design, construction, and upkeep of it.

but there's less things, they just need to clean the pool. They don't need to balance the SI. They don't need to balance the pH.

Rudy (01:41:21.27)
That's a section I was hoping, that was a section I was hoping Andrea would take because Andrea right now is in the field maintaining, cleaning, servicing pools personally more than myself or probably even Frank at this point in time. So can you take this one?

Allen Schnaak (01:41:37.856)
God bless you, Andrew. Been there, done that. Got that t-shirt. Ha ha ha.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:41:39.521)
That was one of the things. Yeah, that was, I did ask you about that a couple of times. So like I was really interested in the chemical factor of it. I know. Huh? What? Oh.

Rudy (01:41:50.386)
not the chemical, but the actual maintenance. I mean, do we vacuum those types of things?

Allen Schnaak (01:41:55.884)
Vacuum brush. You know, same thing holds true in the natural pool as we've been preaching in chemical pools for decades and decades. Brush the frigging pool. You know, the amount of problems that are prevented by simply brushing the walls and bottom or employing a good robotic cleaner to do the same thing. I mean, natural organisms, they want to grow on a surface.

Help them prevent that by brushing it.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:42:29.889)
So, it's funny is, and like I said, I'm not trying to argue here, but one of the things that they say in the CPO book is we brush to prevent biofilms. But isn't that your like, is that different from your filter?

Allen Schnaak (01:42:44.36)
No, that's perfect. That's a perfect comment because the organisms that we're nurturing to grow into the filter area, we haven't sent them a strongly worded memo that says, oh, by the way, you're only allowed to grow in the area that we've labeled as biological filter. No, they would have none of that. And you give any of these free floating microbes an option of sitting down and growing on the steps or the walls.

And they will. I mean, they don't wanna be free-floating. They're colony organisms and they love growing film. And I think I mentioned earlier, even the growth of the film within the pool is not a detriment to the biology. It's a detriment to the client's aesthetic expectation. Some clients don't care. Those that are worried about a splotch of green or yellow that may show up and just go into hysteria,

Rudy (01:43:33.09)
Do we actually, do we monitor the type?

Allen Schnaak (01:43:41.712)
No, that's not our client.

Rudy (01:43:43.33)
We don't care what kind of biofilm we grow, as long as it's biofilm, we're good to go.

Allen Schnaak (01:43:47.812)
The biofilm that's nurtured in this aquatic environment is specific to an aquatic environment. There are biofilms that grow everywhere.

Rudy (01:43:58.862)
So there are some biofilms, there are some biofilms that secrete toxins.

Allen Schnaak (01:43:59.014)
Ours is specific.

Rudy (01:44:07.874)
Hepatoxins that affect livers, nervous system toxins, this is fact. So we're assuming then the, now in a chlorine treated swimming pool, we do know that it's oxidized very quickly and it would have to be in mass quantity. The toxins are.

Allen Schnaak (01:44:27.692)
actually they don't oxidize very quickly. They emit, they emit catalase and neutralizes oxidizer. So.

Rudy (01:44:34.83)
The toxins are oxidized very quickly. This information comes from Cyanolabs in Palatka, the scientists over there. That's actually the leading cyanobacteria research center in the country, so which Palatka, Florida, correct, where I've partnered with them for most of the hepatoxin testing I've had done on the samples that I've collected. And of course it would have to be in mass quantity.

Allen Schnaak (01:44:47.005)
and Palatka.

Rudy (01:45:03.29)
There are some that only secrete these toxins upon lysis, which I assume would not occur then in your environment. So that would not be as much a threat there. But are we concerned with this type of stuff from different types of the bacterias that would create these biofilms or not so much?

Allen Schnaak (01:45:32.14)
I'm sorry, was there a question in? I didn't hear.

Rudy (01:45:34.258)
Are you concerned with the type of bacteria because of the different properties of different bacteria that create biofilms?

Allen Schnaak (01:45:45.464)
No, because the profile of microbial organisms that are growing and being encouraged to develop in our aquatic biological filters are not the profile of a...

Allen Schnaak (01:46:02.582)
of a parasitic biofilm, what would you?

Rudy (01:46:06.85)
Do you, are you aware that Nyglery-Fowlery specifically is associated with the growth of biofilms? Not parasitic biofilms, biofilms.

Allen Schnaak (01:46:15.28)
You know, it's misleading to characterize biofilm as a singular organism. Biofilm is a universe of a universe of communal microbial organisms. The biofilm that's being developed in this environment is

Rudy (01:46:23.407)
No, it's many different organisms.

Rudy (01:46:28.735)
I understand that.

Rudy (01:46:34.186)
I wanna know how we control it.

Allen Schnaak (01:46:39.558)
The control is in the design, flow rate, nutrient rate, minimizing nutrients.

Rudy (01:46:42.022)
I'm okay with the, you see, I'm okay with the whole there's good biofilm, there's bad biofilm. I can buy into that. I wanna know how we ensure we only have good biofilm. That's my question, because I don't.

Allen Schnaak (01:46:51.082)
Yeah.

Allen Schnaak (01:46:59.095)
So the original colonies, the colonies of bacteria, fungi, zooplankton, rodifers, all those organisms are growing and forming in a communal environment that is self-supporting. It's only when the nutrient level gets so high that excessive amounts of nutrients encourage the growth of opportunistic organisms.

parasites and cysts and viruses. Those are all opportunistic organisms. And it's in that situation and those conditions that a different profile of biofilm is formed because the audience is different. The nutrients are higher. Possibly temperature is different. The nutrient load could be different. In our situations, that is not the biofilm that is developing.

Rudy (01:47:51.902)
Obviously, yeah, obviously there's a ton of information left to talk about. And we can probably go on and on. I know Frank could probably chime in along the way as well. I see he has more thoughts going on in there. I would like to.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:48:08.481)
tried to keep up with your questions, Frank. So I only missed that one. So I apologize.

Rudy (01:48:14.602)
I would like to learn more about what you're doing. I would like to visit your offices one day so you can show me around. I don't know, Frank, field trip Frank?

Allen Schnaak (01:48:22.016)
Please do. We've got a pool installed up there now. It's the first natural pool display in the country, in Hackettstown, at our office in Hackettstown.

Rudy (01:48:30.054)
So for those folks that have been listening attentively for this has been a long one. I know there's a lot of natural pool fans. Zach Balbini, do we know Zach out of Arizona? Zach came on the Facebook page for the group and comments. I assume he's a strong builder out there in that area, large supporter of natural pools.

Allen Schnaak (01:48:37.428)
Yeah, yeah, I'm saying it.

Allen Schnaak (01:48:45.8)
I know, Zach.

Rudy (01:48:59.242)
I know he'll be listening as well as many others. And I'm sure, and then of course, a lot of people in the traditional pool industry realm listening as well. So maybe some have converted, maybe you've got some interest, maybe some are just like, hey, it's everything I thought it was. But the point is that how do people get ahold of you for more information if they want it, Alan?

Allen Schnaak (01:49:13.744)
Hey, you know, I don't have any grand aspirations, Rudy.

Allen Schnaak (01:49:26.285)
Yeah, they go to bion My contact information's all over there. If you fill out the contact form, we actually have the definitive guide to natural swimming pools you can download. It does ask that you fill out your contact information. That just comes to me. If you learned about this on Talking Pools podcast today, then put that in the comments section so I know. And yeah, I'm happy to answer any questions. It's not as mysterious and as...

controversial as some would have it. It's the most natural way to allow water to exist. We're happy to help people find it.

Rudy (01:50:00.822)
Lots of questions, lots of questions, everybody. Every one of us, myself, Frank, and Andrea, at one point in time and asking our questions stated specifically, I'm not trying to argue, but. And we're not, we do understand that we are passionate, that we do have an understanding. We do have, we do have questions, and we do also have knowledge. So we would like to see how it dovetails.

Allen Schnaak (01:50:16.461)
You have concerns, I understand.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:50:20.18)
I like to learn.

Allen Schnaak (01:50:22.878)
You know.

Allen Schnaak (01:50:27.456)
Let's do this again.

Rudy (01:50:29.166)
We want to see how it dovetails. Yes, I would be happy to. In fact, I would like to suggest that we continue this on the Deep End podcast. And I come in as a guest, if Andrea, if you'd like to as well. I think Frank's audience, I think Frank's not gonna yell at me about that. I have, no, you know, Frank's a friend.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:50:45.025)
Sure. Well, we just invited ourselves onto Frank's show, so.

Allen Schnaak (01:50:51.155)
You must pay a lot Frank.

Frank (01:50:54.354)
They're always welcome, always welcome.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:50:57.581)
Well, as long as Rudy's not trying to come without me, cause...

Rudy (01:51:01.122)
Frank's a friend and he does a good job with his podcast and he hits a totally different industry than we do. So if we had anything close to a sister podcast, I think I would call it that one. I don't know how Frank feels about that. But, so, but yeah, so whole different world, lots of questions. I know sometimes, like I said, it sounded like arguing, but it's not. What you have here is four people who are.

Allen Schnaak (01:51:14.592)
Well, I'll check that out. I'm just getting familiar with the whole podcast landscape out there.

Frank (01:51:17.61)
Yeah, different listeners, different listeners.

Rudy (01:51:28.15)
really passionate about what they're doing. And apparently Alan and Rudy with similar personalities. So in that, which is never good in the same room, I think that probably about nailed most of it. But with that said, get ahold of Alan again, bion is that what it is? bion Listen to Frank on the Deep End podcast.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:51:38.711)
Woo!

Allen Schnaak (01:51:40.077)
Yeah.

Allen Schnaak (01:51:51.328)
That's right.

Allen Schnaak (01:51:56.904)
I will.

Frank (01:51:57.72)
Thank you.

Rudy (01:51:57.794)
Check him out as well. And for now, like us, love us. This is gonna, we're gonna wrap this one up. Andrea, you wanna take us out?

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:52:06.029)
Follow us, I'm Adventures of the Pool Girl, Rudy is like the pool man or something, I don't know. And then we're all like at talking pools all over the socials, follow us, like us do the things. And yeah, that's what's your problems. Thanks Frank and thanks Alan.

Rudy (01:52:13.236)
Hahaha

Rudy (01:52:19.158)
Yeah, thank you guys. Thank you everybody for, thank you. Thank you everybody for tuning in to listen to us. Thank you Alan for dealing with my crap for two hours. Now you know why you didn't hire me 20 years ago. Frank. Frank, thank you as always buddy for stopping in and everybody at home and out in the field and in route trucks listening, you know what? We love you guys. Thank you so much for tuning in and until next time, be good.

Allen Schnaak (01:52:24.157)
Thank you all. Good to see you.

Frank (01:52:26.796)
Thank you.

Allen Schnaak (01:52:33.367)
Hahaha!

Frank (01:52:33.958)
Hahaha

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:52:34.185)
hahaha

Frank (01:52:39.11)
I appreciate you letting me in.

Rudy (01:52:49.111)
Be safe.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:52:50.601)
going to get Chinese food.

Rudy (01:52:52.494)
course you are.

Andrea The Pool Girl (01:52:54.366)
I'm H-