Rudy (40:48.342)
which is then either new in the industry or not, because that same report that I'm looking at states specifically that pools, natural pools growing throughout Europe and Germany, Spain, and other countries listed are not regulated or not looked at, and nobody tests the water in them except for the owner. From the University of Barcelona.
Allen Schnaak (41:07.996)
Well, that's totally inaccurate because in the... Yeah, well, I mean, it's inaccurate to characterize the natural pool industry under one big umbrella of being ignorant of water quality standards because that's not the case. The International Organization of Natural Bathing Waters, IOB slash EV, have you not found their site yet, use the FLL standards. And the FLL standards have been developed
actually have evolved over decades from their initiation in the green roof phenomenon of Europe. It started back in the 60s. So unsurprisingly enough, the biology that goes on in soil and the biology that goes on in water is remarkably similar. So we were able to link
the association of what makes the best viable environment for the growth of an aquatic-borne biology. So the FLL standards were developed. You can go to the FLL.org and download a copy of the current public pool standards for natural swimming pools, because it is a thing and they are being used and they are being maintained and successfully owned and operated.
Rudy (42:35.79)
And I have no reason to doubt you. And again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am explaining to you that there is a tremendous amount of research backing everything that I say as well. And it differs greatly from what you're saying.
Allen Schnaak (42:51.344)
And well, I wouldn't say it differs greatly. I mean, the biology is the biology.
Rudy (42:55.006)
It's fairly significant.
Allen Schnaak (42:58.224)
And really, Rudy, I mean, in my world of discussing natural pools with clients, I would characterize you as not being a natural pool client. You have. Yeah. So so that's OK. It ain't about you, Rudy. It's about it's about the burgeoning numbers of people that are becoming more environmentally aware about ways that they can impact.
Rudy (43:10.813)
Probably not.
Rudy (43:16.918)
I get that.
Allen Schnaak (43:27.04)
their place on the planet.
Rudy (43:27.13)
I am concerned, I am concerned about a new trend that could possibly be an emerging health risk. That's what I'm concerned about.
Allen Schnaak (43:36.26)
Yeah, well, there are more chemically treated pools going off the rails due to driver error than natural pools going off the rails due to error.
Rudy (43:44.554)
because there's more chemically treated pools, period, exponentially more. I think once the numbers catch up, we might see that it runs differently.
Allen Schnaak (43:54.06)
I don't know. I think I'd be, I wouldn't be surprised that if in the next 10 years, 5 to 7% of the installed base of recreational water in the U.S. was natural. Right now, it's less than 0.005% of all installed pools. And that's a rudimentary figure because who knows how many have read Mother Earth News or
done some type of DIY excavation. And we have a very engineered and.
Allen Schnaak (44:34.46)
and specific approach to designing the environment to ensure that it's optimized for the conditions we want to create.
Rudy (44:34.721)
It's new.
Rudy (44:42.318)
It's new and I do want to understand and I do respect you. I've known you for decades and you are very much on board with it. But I do definitely have questions and a lot of that is even based off of not even necessarily reading other people's information. And trust me, if there was a natural pool that I knew of within any sort of a distance, if you can find me one.
Allen Schnaak (44:49.276)
Well, Rudy, I'll put you on my mailing list and we'll keep you.
Rudy (45:08.562)
I will be happy to go over there and run these tests myself and I'll let you know what I come up with. There.
Allen Schnaak (45:13.78)
Well, you need to I mean, you could go right now on to the Weber Park Natural Pool in Minneapolis and on their website, they have the water test and water quality data that's been captured for the past seven years. And
Rudy (45:28.746)
and that pool is riddled with closures. The Weber Park Pool.
Allen Schnaak (45:34.531)
It was closed in 2016 for several days due to migratory waterfowl inhabiting the wetlands environment.
Rudy (45:44.767)
It was closed last year due to exceeding E. coli levels for the standard for natural swimming pools.
Allen Schnaak (45:53.824)
So there you go. That is oversight at work. Ranges are put in place, processes are put in place to test and quantify the quality of water. They did. Same thing would happen in a chemically treated pool. If it was excessive level of E. coli, yeah, they'd be shut down too.
Rudy (46:00.519)
Oversight?
Rudy (46:13.186)
But going back, because this is one of the first public pools converted to what they're calling a, hold on a second, a naturally treated pool, that's what they're preferring to call it now, a naturally treated pool, this has been in the public eye. OK, even better.
Allen Schnaak (46:36.584)
It wasn't converted. That was a brand new bill.
Rudy (46:42.678)
This is still because it's a naturally treated pool. It's in the public eye. And because it's in the public eye, anything that happens, good or bad, makes the news. And if you search through the news, you can find, actually this was pointed out to me by a woman named Angie, who's the director of environmental health in Minneapolis in the public health department in the environmental health division.
Allen Schnaak (46:43.712)
22,000 square feet.
Allen Schnaak (46:54.976)
So is that, is it?
Allen Schnaak (47:11.856)
oversight process at work. Hey Rudy, unless you misunderstood, I have not said that natural pools are a perfect, you know, a panacea of water. What I've said is natural pools are an option for maintenance and upkeep as opposed to using chemistry. Is there a downside for chemistry? Yeah, there's people out there that are all the time complaining about something.
Rudy (47:41.242)
I think they are an option. My concerns are with the maintenance. My concerns are with the lack of.
available or I'm going to rephrase this because I believe you do have your sources, but for the lack of widely available research by unbiased bodies pertaining to natural pools in comparison to those done by chemically treated pools, unbiased bodies.
Allen Schnaak (48:13.796)
Unbiased body. Yeah, I gotta love that about the pool industry. Yeah, there's no bias in the pool industry, is there? Yeah. Yeah, Olin, Monsanto.
Rudy (48:17.774)
I, that's why we're outside the pool industry in this statement. You're not going to find no, I, well, here's the thing. I don't, I don't buy the information I get from the pool industry necessarily either. If you follow the podcast, if you do follow along, which that's, you know, it's fine. And you know me for a while. One of the things I do is I just like, I ask questions. I like to question the status quo because there's usually not much.
backing it. So I do a lot of my own research. And I don't do like most of the industry does research of research, which drives me crazy in this industry. I'm sure it drove you mad when you were here as well. The all the new research. Okay, where did it come from? Well, we found this document from 1975 out of Beijing. Well, that's not research. To me, it's not. So I don't want to see that I want to see new research done by universities.
or scientists that are outside just unbiased opinions, that's what I look for. And if it's not there, I go get it myself, as much as I possibly can.
Allen Schnaak (49:26.336)
Well, as the marketplace for natural pools grows, and it will, then certainly there's going to be the corresponding level of experiential knowledge. And as I mentioned, the effort to get the efficacy data from the public pool operations that we have the data for, I think will go a long way to help.
getting guidelines written in the US for natural biological filters in public pools in the US. Because that's what it's going to take. The health department wants to know that we're not making their life more difficult.
Rudy (50:02.038)
I think for you, the pool at Weber Park sets precedence. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, I think that's, I do think that that's a good thing for you. I'm not saying there's not a place for it. I just don't know enough about it. That's why I wanted to speak with you and I am going to have different opinions on things and I hope nobody is taking this as an argument.
Allen Schnaak (50:06.804)
Well, it's a wonderful example. It's a wonderful example of a natural environment.
Rudy (50:29.954)
We're both very passionate about what we do, but I do have differing opinions on a lot of stuff, and I would like you to share with me the scientific research, not the brochures, not the stuff that goes out to everybody. I like to know what we're dealing with exactly. I wanna see the test results. And then I'd be happy to share that information as well. And like I said, if there's a natural pool nearby, my area, Gainesville, Florida, find me one.
that's willing to let me come. They wanna prove that they're wonderful. That's great. I'm happy to go out there and give honest feedback. Now I know Andrea's chomping at the bit here. She's got some, I can see she has some questions. So me and you, you and I have been speaking quite a bit. So we're just gonna let her take lead for just a moment. So,
Allen Schnaak (51:15.532)
What you got, Andrew?
Rudy (51:20.846)
Thank you.
Andrea The Pool Girl (51:21.693)
I was just interested in how the filters worked because I was under the impression that you used plants. So I don't mean to like be redundant and like go back and cause anymore discussion. But my, so I was reading, sorry, I was reading on the website, I thought that the plants were part of the filter. And then I read the part about the biofilm filter. So that was my whole question was, so you don't actually need the plants.
Allen Schnaak (51:34.888)
No, well, you know, that's, that's...
Andrea The Pool Girl (51:50.581)
You don't, you really do not, because a lot of people will say, Oh, it's chemical free and they don't actually mean that because, you know, like you said with the salt pool, that's not an actual natural pool, people market those as not needing chemicals, chemical free, blah, blah. Now you got the hydrodynamic, hydrodynamic cavitation units that also claim to be chemical free. So that was, that was where my misunderstanding.
was of it and I just was kind of trying to speak for people who might not know as much as you guys do who might be at the same knowledge level as me. So the filter was interesting to me and the and the truly absolutely no excuse me no chemicals.
Allen Schnaak (52:34.768)
Yeah, and Andrea, let me just, and to the listeners, anybody who's owned an aquarium is familiar with a biofilm filter. There's, it's a common method of water, fresh water filtration in aquariums.
Andrea The Pool Girl (52:53.289)
I have a few aquariums. Well, I have a hundred gallon fish tank at home and then I have, you know, I have a couple of those.
Allen Schnaak (53:00.588)
So, I mean, we're using the same science in our systems as the biology and science that's going on in the aquarium. In our case, we don't really want fish in the water because of the additional waste that's contributed by it. But the reality is in the biofilm, the microbial area, one of the points I wanted to make up about the biofilm filter is the efficiency of space. It only, that same 600 square foot
that needs 300 square feet of regeneration planted zone, that same 600 square foot pool only needs a 50 square foot space for the biofilm filter. It goes in the ground and it's adjacent to nearby or effectively plumbed to the pool, but it's a much easier, more economical way to adapt a natural biological filter to a pool than to add a planted.
regeneration zone. Less expensive, less space.
Andrea The Pool Girl (53:58.557)
And so that the plants just kind of look are like an aesthetic kind of thing to it. Yeah.
Allen Schnaak (54:02.852)
Yeah, I mean, I'm a gardener. I love plants and the people that gravitate to that type of pool, they're looking for that aesthetic, you know, that that's the way they want their area to be designed and Rudy, you may think that it's a niche, but you know, one thing that helps a niche industry or a niche industry, like the swimming pool industry is broadening the base of the swimming pool industry.
The majority, over 60% of the clients when asked when shopping for a natural pool, 60% of those clients said they're not even shopping for a chemical pool. So those are clients that aren't even coming into the typical pool builder. Because the pool builder is trying to sell them salt or they're trying to sell them biguanide because it's chlorine free. Oh, there's a great example.
that you could go back and take a look at. Bacquoiselle, when it came on the market in the 80s, it ravaged the chlorine industry. Why? Because it was so cheap? No, because it was proclaimed as being chlorine free. So people were lined up and buying their blue jugs and hydrogen peroxide, and it was a great little story for about 10 years.
and then it's subsided. So I bring that example up to remind everybody that there are clients out there, they're looking for an alternative source to chlorine. My suggestion is you offer it to them. And if you don't know anything about natural pools, don't make it up. Call me, I'm happy to jump on a call, phone, do numerous client builder meetings to help answer both builder questions.
and client questions, because it's a village.
Andrea The Pool Girl (55:58.497)
So I have, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but so I think this is Frank. Is this Frank right here, Deep? This person that their name is Deep. I believe it's Frank. Frank had two good points and I'll just, okay, yes. He says, yes, it's Frank. I'm gonna read them to you and then I just, it is Frank in the audience, yes, Frank Disher. So.
Rudy (56:14.446)
Is that Frank in the audience?
Rudy (56:20.102)
Why don't I just let him in and he can ask his own question.
Andrea The Pool Girl (56:22.481)
Well, I don't know. I just see him popping up in the chat over here. He's got two questions. So his first one is, he says that, I'm guessing every disease that can exist in a traditional pool can exist in a natural pool, except that in a traditional pool, I can control it. Raccoon turds, duck turds, people, whatever. And then his second question was, how can a pro assume the liability of maintaining a natural pool? It does not seem to be a reasonable possibility.
Rudy (56:27.458)
Okay.
Allen Schnaak (56:53.164)
How do you guarantee algae free?
Allen Schnaak (56:59.368)
And a chemical pool allure. I mean, we can provide best practices for maintenance and operation. And.
Rudy (57:06.186)
best way to go about it, in my opinion, is to set the water up so that it's not conducive to the growth of algae in the first place. And in doing that...
Allen Schnaak (57:13.576)
Yeah, so you grow a healthy aquatic biome and it consumes the nutrients and prevents and suppresses the growth.
Rudy (57:19.118)
pH control is a huge part of that. But I know also there are natural pools that are dependent upon the growth of diatoms as part of their.
Allen Schnaak (57:29.952)
Diatoms are ubiquitous to our environment. We don't plant them. We don't seed them. We don't grow them.
Rudy (57:33.866)
and that's something that obviously we frown upon.
That's something that we do keep out, and we do understand that we can set up swimming. I do grow diatoms. I think we do, like you said, I'm weird. But, da-da-da-da. Anyhow, the point is different chemistry can dictate the success of whether colonies form or not. And if you maintain a lower pH, you are less likely to have.
Andrea The Pool Girl (57:42.237)
Unless you're Rudy, you don't grow them.
Andrea The Pool Girl (57:49.195)
I knew it!
Rudy (58:05.838)
problems with the forms of algae that typically grow in swimming pools. That's a fact. Lower than 7.5. Higher than 7.5, more conducive to growth. Diatoms are dependent upon calcium hardness. They need a specific level in order to be able to move about that body of water. They have to move about so they can find the best location, so they can get the nutrients and the sunlight that they need. Now,
Allen Schnaak (58:09.629)
lower than.
Allen Schnaak (58:32.352)
Yeah, well, the biological and liminological profile of a body of water in the Pacific Northwest is different than the biological profile of a water body in the Southeast. So again, trying to throw a big umbrella over the entire class saying all are the same. No, they're not. The environments and systems at play vary with climate zone.
Rudy (58:58.826)
Absolutely. No, no, no doubt. I have actually, I can show you that specifically just based off of the research that I've done with black algae. I found pools that were, that we call black algae, black algae, black algae is always cyanobacteria. It's a cyanobacteria biofilm. It does harbor other things, but the constituents that make up that black algae are,
Allen Schnaak (59:00.051)
the length of the season, daylight hours. So there's.
Rudy (59:23.67)
They do differ by geographic locations, and it can be in as distance as close as one mile is what I have found from my research, which to me is amazing. Initially, I've had it down to 100 miles where I could see a change in the constituents of the colony, but now it's down to within a mile, pools within a mile of one another, which... Actually, you know, it's become a career...
Allen Schnaak (59:44.032)
Rudy, you need to get another hobby. I can just see you out there with your little marker tags.
Andrea The Pool Girl (59:50.344)
haha
Rudy (59:51.55)
It's actually Alan, it's become, it's become, it's become a career actually that's been fairly lucrative. And part of the reason for that is that I am discovering new ways to keep algae from growing in bodies of water. And the best way to do that is to understand those things.
Allen Schnaak (01:00:01.108)
Alright, you-
Allen Schnaak (01:00:10.812)
Yeah, so let's all, let's have a kinder, gentler approach to our understanding of nature. You know, we don't have to combat it. Oh, we have to optimize it. We have to nurture nature. And we are the stewards of this environment. And the reality is there's more people that are looking at options in their life that would be more suitable if they were more environmentally sustainable.
That's not 100% of the population, but it's a significant enough segment and a growing segment that I think that we would be better as an industry if we knowledgeably approach this topic of natural chemistry with natural swimming pools with discussions like we're having. People are certainly motivated to seek out information.
Rudy (01:01:00.982)
You know, it's funny though to me, every time Alan, just to interrupt, every time I point out information based off of research that I've done on my own, you've glanced it off as being weird, strange hobbies, things along those lines. When I'm bringing actual research to the table, that...
negates yours.
Allen Schnaak (01:01:24.224)
Well, it doesn't negate anything. It just means that you become aware of the dynamics of a very complex environment that is much more, well, from actual vessels, from the actual pools, from bathrobes, water temperatures.
Rudy (01:01:25.97)
It makes what you're saying. Well, here's the thing.
Rudy (01:01:33.746)
And where is your research coming from?
Rudy (01:01:41.31)
and who's conducting this research.
Allen Schnaak (01:01:45.332)
Pardon me? Poly plan.
Rudy (01:01:46.018)
who's conducting the research.
poly plant.
Allen Schnaak (01:01:51.788)
Holly Plann.
Rudy (01:01:54.402)
poly plan. It's because most of my research occurs right there. Which I guess that does make me weird.
Allen Schnaak (01:02:01.3)
Well, that makes for an interesting meeting. But I mean, the dialogue that you could have amongst constituents that are familiar with it may actually even be a little bit more rewarding.
Rudy (01:02:11.858)
Actually, most of our listeners are extremely familiar with it. We've been talking about a lot of it for over three years. So they are familiar with it. They're fairly up to speed on a lot of the different things that we're speaking about, which is why I was asking for more detail.
Allen Schnaak (01:02:25.48)
Yeah, Rudy, in the communication I'd sent to you and Andrea a month or so ago, my incentive was to at least make sure that this natural pool category is recognized as a viable option for those who are looking at considering it. It's not going to be an alternative for those who don't want natural pools. It's going to be an alternative for people who are
looking for a natural solution. And we have it.
Rudy (01:02:59.094)
My concern is only that it's safe. And I would like to see more research.
Allen Schnaak (01:03:03.564)
There's not a swimming pool built out there that's safe according to OSHA standards.
Rudy (01:03:08.657)
My concern is that it's more hazardous than chemically treated pools due to waterborne zoonoses.
Allen Schnaak (01:03:16.424)
More hazardous than the lady mixing the Calhypo by the pool that was the latest Instagram thing where she, yeah, the gas cloud. Yeah.
Rudy (01:03:21.61)
I'm talking about at a microbial level. At a microbial level. I understand that. I mean, you can't knock the lady who stirred the chemicals, the Cal Hypo, because you sold, promoted that product for 30 years. So we can't just jump in and say that all of a sudden it's evil.
Allen Schnaak (01:03:39.292)
No, I guess my point is there's a hazard around every corner and you can mitigate the circumstances by becoming more knowledgeable about what the options are. So in our case, yeah, this is not just some hokey snake wall application that the pool industry is so familiar with. It is biological filtration applied to swimming pools. It's not new, it's different.
Rudy (01:04:04.074)
I don't think it's hokey, Alan. I'm trying to understand it. And in trying to understand things, I ask questions. And the questions I'm gonna ask her, a lot of them are based off of the research that I've done. So the last thing I'm trying to do is to turn people away. I'm giving you an opportunity to ask, answer questions that we all have. So that's all I'm trying to do here. And...
I do agree that it's an option. I would like to see more information on it, as I'm sure a lot of people would. The problem is, from the way that I see it, there are very few sources of information for this. Even in a thorough search for information, there's not a lot that comes back. Now, granted, there's questionable materials for swimming pools, chemically treated pools as well, but I'm not trying to learn about those right now.
I want to learn more about yours and make a comparison. And I can't because the research just is not easily found.
Allen Schnaak (01:05:10.124)
I got your email address Rudy, I'll load you up. I'll copy you too, Andrew, you're in this too.
